Re: The strongest HiME..

by **The Fire Stirring Ruby** Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:41 am

I'd want to write (or type, erm...) a very long post but with my business to schoolwork, I'd do a quick one.

As most of you know (or probably just a handful), I love Mai Tokiha and it'd be biased to say that she's the strongest HiME out there. But, come on, the others are strong too, just in a different manner.

Thinking about it, just like one user had posted (sorry, I don't really remember who), Mikoto would be one of the strongest HiME in raw power since she only uses her sword than her CHILD. She would even get more powerful with Miroku combined, but then again... Kagutsuchi defeated him [Miroku] with his full powers.

I would consider Shizuru as the strongest HiME, although my opinions would not end here. I might elaborate on another post.
>__>

by **Luu Sky Sapphire** Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:00 pm

The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:I'd want to write (or type, erm...) a very long post but with my business to schoolwork, I'd do a quick one.

As most of you know (or probably just a handful), I love Mai Tokiha and it'd be biased to say that she's the strongest HiME out there. But, come on, the others are strong too, just in a different manner.

Thinking about it, just like one user had posted (sorry, I don't really remember who), Mikoto would be one of the strongest HiME in raw power since she only uses her sword than her CHILD. She would even get more powerful with Miroku combined, but then again... Kagutsuchi defeated him [Miroku] with his full powers.

I would consider Shizuru as the strongest HiME, although my opinions would not end here. I might elaborate on another post.
>__>

Shizuru would be the strongest if Kiyohime had a lot more durability against massive explosions. Being unable to take a direct shot from Duran's Silver Cartridge at close range seems miniscule compared to Kagutsuchi taking a direct hit from Artemis's beam. Not only did Kagutsuchi take the hit, it even revived itself. Or if you don't believe in the resurrection theory, it certainly healed itself.

by **Midori Sugiura** Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:07 am

I think that it'd be interesting to see Alyssa's Element, then I could make a true judgement call on her, though are we including her bodyguard in this equation?

by **Highman** Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:27 am

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:
The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:I'd want to write (or type, erm...) a very long post but with my business to schoolwork, I'd do a quick one.

As most of you know (or probably just a handful), I love Mai Tokiha and it'd be biased to say that she's the strongest HiME out there. But, come on, the others are strong too, just in a different manner.

Thinking about it, just like one user had posted (sorry, I don't really remember who), Mikoto would be one of the strongest HiME in raw power since she only uses her sword than her CHILD. She would even get more powerful with Miroku combined, but then again... Kagutsuchi defeated him [Miroku] with his full powers.

I would consider Shizuru as the strongest HiME, although my opinions would not end here. I might elaborate on another post.
>__>

Shizuru would be the strongest if Kiyohime had a lot more durability against massive explosions. Being unable to take a direct shot from Duran's Silver Cartridge at close range seems miniscule compared to Kagutsuchi taking a direct hit from Artemis's beam. Not only did Kagutsuchi take the hit, it even revived itself. Or if you don't believe in the resurrection theory, it certainly healed itself.

Kagutsuchi revived? You mean regenerated and reform into an awesome beast that no one couldn't messed with. Holy mackarol, Kagutsuchi instincts knew he/her going to blasted into nothingness, Mai may knew it was coming, they were both going kamikaze Artemis to hell.

by **Midori Sugiura** Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:19 am

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:
The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:I'd want to write (or type, erm...) a very long post but with my business to schoolwork, I'd do a quick one.

As most of you know (or probably just a handful), I love Mai Tokiha and it'd be biased to say that she's the strongest HiME out there. But, come on, the others are strong too, just in a different manner.

Thinking about it, just like one user had posted (sorry, I don't really remember who), Mikoto would be one of the strongest HiME in raw power since she only uses her sword than her CHILD. She would even get more powerful with Miroku combined, but then again... Kagutsuchi defeated him [Miroku] with his full powers.

I would consider Shizuru as the strongest HiME, although my opinions would not end here. I might elaborate on another post.
>__>

Shizuru would be the strongest if Kiyohime had a lot more durability against massive explosions. Being unable to take a direct shot from Duran's Silver Cartridge at close range seems miniscule compared to Kagutsuchi taking a direct hit from Artemis's beam. Not only did Kagutsuchi take the hit, it even revived itself. Or if you don't believe in the resurrection theory, it certainly healed itself.

Judging by Durans Size at that point the caliber of one of Duran's Guns in regular form it's around the calibur size of an AT4 Rocket Launcher, so the width of one bullet from upgraded duran would be around 2 meters in diameter minimum, trust me, at close range even Miroku & Kagutsuchi would have a hard time facing explosive bullets like that

by **Luu Sky Sapphire** Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:55 pm

Highman wrote:
Kagutsuchi revived? You mean regenerated and reform into an awesome beast that no one couldn't messed with. Holy mackarol, Kagutsuchi instincts knew he/her going to blasted into nothingness, Mai may knew it was coming, they were both going kamikaze Artemis to hell.

We don't know, honestly. The resurrection theory makes sense for the old argument that all Kagutsuchi users won most, if not all of the past Carnivals. And no, I'm not saying that because I'm a mark for Mai Tokiha. It's a theory that marries itself with the fact that the Obsidian Lord has some sort of obsession with Kagutsuchi summoners. Some argue that the Carnival is fixed. Nothing was ever stated though, it just makes a little sense when you bring Mashiro into the picture.

by **PostoronnimV** Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:50 am

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:We don't know, honestly. The resurrection theory makes sense for the old argument that all Kagutsuchi users won most, if not all of the past Carnivals. And no, I'm not saying that because I'm a mark for Mai Tokiha. It's a theory that marries itself with the fact that the Obsidian Lord has some sort of obsession with Kagutsuchi summoners. Some argue that the Carnival is fixed. Nothing was ever stated though, it just makes a little sense when you bring Mashiro into the picture.

This, btw, is a very interesting theory and, in my opinion, a very plausible. Although I always thought that Kagutsuchi survived after taking a direct hit from Artemis's beam, cuz Alyssa was not a true HIME, she was artificially created... so her child could not kill a child of a true HIME. Because was mentioned, that only HIME had the power to get rid of orphans and orphans - are children who were not able to find owners.

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:... Natsuki is either highly skilled or just lucky to survive an encounter with Mikoto. ;p

Natsuki defeated Mikoto twice, so that is already not luck, but the statistics... the consistent pattern =)

And I think Shizuru is the strongest HIME.

by **Luu Sky Sapphire** Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:08 pm

PostoronnimV wrote:Because was mentioned, that only HIME had the power to get rid of orphans and orphans - are children who were not able to find owners.

Possible generalization? lol It does make sense that Alyssa and Artemis wouldn't be as powerful as real HiME and CHILDs. Though that would mean any of them could take the beam without dying and judging by the shocked expressions on the faces of the other HiME, Kagutsuchi seems to be the only one who can take it...

PostoronnimV wrote:And I think Shizuru is the strongest HIME.

...or not. Wink

Then again, you are saying Shizuru is the strongest HiME. Or does that include the strongest CHILD too?

by **PostoronnimV** Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:24 pm

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:Possible generalization? lol It does make sense that Alyssa and Artemis wouldn't be as powerful as real HiME and CHILDs. Though that would mean any of them could take the beam without dying and judging by the shocked expressions on the faces of the other HiME, Kagutsuchi seems to be the only one who can take it...

Well, I do believe that even Yukino's plant-like Diana would have been able to take the beam and survive=) And the shocked expressions on the faces of the other HiME - it is a normal reaction, in my opinion, cuz they could not know that Artemis, the child created by human hands, does not possess enough power to kill the true child. So it does not detract from Mai's heroic act not in the slightest.

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:
PostoronnimV wrote:And I think Shizuru is the strongest HIME.

...or not. Then again, you are saying Shizuru is the strongest HiME. Or does that include the strongest CHILD too?

Hmm, I do not think that Kiyohime is the strongest child... more - I would not even have placed Shizuru's child high in the rating, maybe, somewhere in the middle... but the team Shizuru + Kiyohime is the strongest, in my opinion =)

by **Midori Sugiura** Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:53 am

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:
PostoronnimV wrote:Because was mentioned, that only HIME had the power to get rid of orphans and orphans - are children who were not able to find owners.

Possible generalization? lol It does make sense that Alyssa and Artemis wouldn't be as powerful as real HiME and CHILDs. Though that would mean any of them could take the beam without dying and judging by the shocked expressions on the faces of the other HiME, Kagutsuchi seems to be the only one who can take it...

MIDORI-ISM 101
the only reason Midori did not take out Artemis herself is she wanted to show Mai the true power of Kagutsuchi

by **Luu Sky Sapphire** Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:54 pm

PostoronnimV wrote:Well, I do believe that even Yukino's plant-like Diana would have been able to take the beam and survive=) And the shocked expressions on the faces of the other HiME - it is a normal reaction, in my opinion, cuz they could not know that Artemis, the child created by human hands, does not possess enough power to kill the true child. So it does not detract from Mai's heroic act not in the slightest.

Interesting theory. I agree that even if Sunrise had your view in mind, it doesn't minimize Mai's actions at all. If anything, she sold that moment, making her look strong as a character.

Seeing how Mashiro considered the false CHILD a thread, there had to be some concern about the damage it could of done to HiME and their CHILDs, right? Diana being able to survive is a bit of a stretch, but your opinion isn't wrong in the slightest. We'll just never know. What I do know is that Mai and Kagutsuchi (imo, the combination I consider the strongest of all) took a fatal blow by the beam and were healed/resurrected. It's all subjective with the what-ifs scenarios. Even with that, I still say a lesser CHILD would of been killed by such an attack. Raising a new pillar to join Akane's. =)

Midori Sugiura wrote:
MIDORI-ISM 101
the only reason Midori did not take out Artemis herself is she wanted to show Mai the true power of Kagutsuchi

*GASP* The biggest reveal since discovering Midori is not actually 17!

Philosodori

: We don't know that. Do we?

by **Midori Sugiura** Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:36 pm

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:

Midori Sugiura wrote:
MIDORI-ISM 101
the only reason Midori did not take out Artemis herself is she wanted to show Mai the true power of Kagutsuchi

*GASP* The biggest reveal since discovering Midori is not actually 17!

: We don't know that. Do we?

MIDORI-ISM 101
Midori is 17, we are 99% sure of this

by **aRANZa-tHAiR** Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:24 pm

I think talking about HiME only (no children involved) I think Mikoto is very strong, at least physically. I love the fighting style of Midori. Yukariko, I think she is a good option, but not wanting to fight. Natsuki has an enviable physical preparation. Nao is helped by her craftiness, so I would continue with each, basically I think they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

by **Midori Sugiura** Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:51 am

aRANZa-tHAiR wrote:I think talking about HiME only (no children involved) I think Mikoto is very strong, at least physically. I love the fighting style of Midori. Yukariko, I think she is a good option, but not wanting to fight. Natsuki has an enviable physical preparation. Nao is helped by her craftiness, so I would continue with each, basically I think they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

in that case I say Yukariko is in the top few, as long as she uses some conventional weapons & traps as well

by **PostoronnimV** Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:49 am

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:Seeing how Mashiro considered the false CHILD a thread, there had to be some concern about the damage it could of done to HiME and their CHILDs, right?

Yeah, although, maybe, Mashiro just wasn't so sure and, therefore, considered the false CHILD a threat, cuz the chances that the human experiment of creating the artificial HiME, who can kill a real HiME, have been crowned with success are equal to 50 to 50 and only the real confrontation between the CHILDs could have reveal the truth. In any case, I think your theory with the resurrection is a more plausible... for example, Mikoto has been resurrected twice. And taking into account that, as you said, Obsidian Lord has some sort of obsession with Kagutsuchi summoners and Reito has feelings for Mai, so there are a very big chances that the team Mai+Kagutsuchi may have been invincible by default=))

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote: What I do know is that Mai and Kagutsuchi (imo, the combination I consider the strongest of all) took a fatal blow by the beam and were healed/resurrected

Well, I think that Kagutsuchi's one of the strongest CHILDs, but Mai... she has too many hesitations in her actions...

by **Luu Sky Sapphire** Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:45 pm

PostoronnimV wrote:Yeah, although, maybe, Mashiro just wasn't so sure and, therefore, considered the false CHILD a threat, cuz the chances that the human experiment of creating the artificial HiME, who can kill a real HiME, have been crowned with success are equal to 50 to 50 and only the real confrontation between the CHILDs could have reveal the truth. In any case, I think your theory with the resurrection is a more plausible... for example, Mikoto has been resurrected twice. And taking into account that, as you said, Obsidian Lord has some sort of obsession with Kagutsuchi summoners and Reito has feelings for Mai, so there are a very big chances that the team Mai+Kagutsuchi may have been invincible by default=))

Mai and Kagutsuchi's track record is impressive sure, I don't think they're invincible though by any means. They can be defeated, it's just not a walk in the park. If you consider the Kagutsuchi from Mai-Otome Zwei to be the same as the one from Mai-HiME, Kagutsuchi has one major weakness that was exposed by, ironically, Mai Tokiha herself. Okay, okay, it's the reincarnated Mai. ;p Still, it's somewhat brilliant how Sunrise worked that fight.

Overall, it's a case of a defeating the HiME and not so much the CHILDs. If anyone had prep time against the HiME, they would know that defeating the CHILD should be the least of their concerns. Unless it's too strong for him, her or it. We're discussing within the Mai-HiME universe though, so every CHILD and HiME clash that didn't transpire during the Carnival arc, is pretty much debatable.

PostoronnimV wrote:Well, I think that Kagutsuchi's one of the strongest CHILDs, but Mai... she has too many hesitations in her actions...

True, she's not as polished as Natsuki or Shizuru who go in for the kill without hesitation. Somehow, the idealists never fail in battle despite their teammates and enemies having a more killer instinct, due to their experience in combat. In Sailor Moon S, Usagi defeated Haruka and Michiru. Lack of combat experience is rendered moot if you're a protagonist of the highest magnitude. If Mai is capable of defeating the likes of Shizuru and Natsuki simultaneously, consider that Sunrise's way of putting her over. No matter how little sense it makes.

by **PostoronnimV** Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:12 am

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:True, she's not as polished as Natsuki or Shizuru who go in for the kill without hesitation. Somehow, the idealists never fail in battle despite their teammates and enemies having a more killer instinct, due to their experience in combat. In Sailor Moon S, Usagi defeated Haruka and Michiru. Lack of combat experience is rendered moot if you're a protagonist of the highest magnitude. If Mai is capable of defeating the likes of Shizuru and Natsuki simultaneously, consider that Sunrise's way of putting her over. No matter how little sense it makes.

=) yeah, this is hard to dispute... it's true that this kind of logic usually applies in the anime... but ironically the likes of Natsuki and Shizuru are the ones who are clearing the way and doing the dirty work for the likes of Mai... =)

by **Luu Sky Sapphire** Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:04 am

PostoronnimV wrote:
=) yeah, this is hard to dispute... it's true that this kind of logic usually applies in the anime... but ironically the likes of Natsuki and Shizuru are the ones who are clearing the way and doing the dirty work for the likes of Mai... =)

Well, yeah, if Mai had destroying First District in mind. That was more Natsuki's battle. =p To go off-topic for a second, I kind of wish First District went down at the hands of Natsuki rather than Shizuru. It was her own personal battle that she needed to finish, especially after discovering her mother's involvement. Then again, that played well for Shizuru's introduction into the story. So while Natsuki didn't keep her vow, Shizuru killing all the agents and grannies provided a nice twist to the story.

Shizuru Kaichou

<---- Fear the tea mistress.

by **PostoronnimV** Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:34 am

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:Well, yeah, if Mai had destroying First District in mind.

I did not mean only First District... I mean in general... Carnival had its own established rules... eventually Mai would have had to give up her ideals, if others would not have done the dirty work... if she would have won the carnival by defeating all the other HiMEs, she would not have been the idealist anymore, right?=)

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:That was more Natsuki's battle. =p To go off-topic for a second, I kind of wish First District went down at the hands of Natsuki rather than Shizuru. It was her own personal battle that she needed to finish, especially after discovering her mother's involvement. Then again, that played well for Shizuru's introduction into the story. So while Natsuki didn't keep her vow, Shizuru killing all the agents and grannies provided a nice twist to the story.

I agree=) I, actually, also kinda wish Natsuki would have been the one, who would have destroyed First District, but at the same time I'm more than satisfied with how the story unfolded in actuality=)

Also, I think, Natsuki (judging by her actions) did not pursue the goal to get rid of First District àla Shizuru had done... Natsuki wanted to terminate the existence of First District as the organization and if necessary to kill only those who must be killed (though I do believe that she on her way of revenge had killed already)... cuz while in shallow situations Natsuki is rather short-tempered and impulsive, but in serious situations she is calculative, collected, far-sighted and sober-blooded... and she methodically was approaching her goal of revenge, until she learned about betrayal of her mother, after which revenge has lost its meaning... therefore, in the end, I do not think, that she would have continued to pursue her original goal (and made our wish come true)... and therefore OL transferred this task to Shizuru... =)

by **Luu Sky Sapphire** Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:36 pm

PostoronnimV wrote:I did not mean only First District... I mean in general... Carnival had its own established rules... eventually Mai would have had to give up her ideals, if others would not have done the dirty work... if she would have won the carnival by defeating all the other HiMEs, she would not have been the idealist anymore, right?=)

I have to admit, Mai did try her best to not murder anyone during the Carnival incident. If she did, that would spell trouble for the other HiME. Because I personally feel she is better than Shizuru, Mai losing her composure (like she did over Takumi's death) could of turned all of Fuuka into ground zero. Many lives would be lost and that just isn't Mai. So once again, we must point fingers at how Sunrise molded their characters. The dirty work was taken care of, but none of it was beyond Mai's abilities if she wanted. =) In the end, we needed the idealist to balance out against the cynics like Nao Yuuki or Natsuki before episode 25 (or 23 if you want to push it).

by **Midori Sugiura** Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:15 am

I personally think If Alyssa had kept to the shadows and District One hadn't interfered, but Alyssa was still somehow a HiME, she would've won, She'd just turn all of them into ash from space

by **Luu Sky Sapphire** Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:56 pm

Midori Sugiura wrote:I personally think If Alyssa had kept to the shadows and District One hadn't interfered, but Alyssa was still somehow a HiME, she would've won, She'd just turn all of them into ash from space

That's sort of true. Alyssa's first blast with ARTEMIS was merely a warning shot. I still think she would of been stopped by one and only one HiME/CHILD combination: Mai and Kagutsuchi.

From that point on, OL Reito will have to deal with little Alyssa himself...

by **Midori Sugiura** Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:03 pm

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:
Midori Sugiura wrote:I personally think If Alyssa had kept to the shadows and District One hadn't interfered, but Alyssa was still somehow a HiME, she would've won, She'd just turn all of them into ash from space

That's sort of true. Alyssa's first blast with ARTEMIS was merely a warning shot. I still think she would of been stopped by one and only one HiME/CHILD combination: Mai and Kagutsuchi.

From that point on, OL Reito will have to deal with little Alyssa himself...

Exactly, and If Mai hadn't had Kagutsuchi summoned at the time Artemis had fired she'd be kind of...ashy right about now

by **Luu Sky Sapphire** Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:08 pm

Midori Sugiura wrote:Exactly, and If Mai hadn't had Kagutsuchi summoned at the time Artemis had fired she'd be kind of...ashy right about now

What a way to enjoy a Festival. Look mommy! Shiny light!

...

Miyu

: So what now? Golden Age?

Mahou Alyssa

: Golden Age.

Sweet <
Kick ass
Bangarang!
Awesome
Radical

Miyu

: Sweet.

by **San.** Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:49 pm

Too bad this topic faded away to forgetfullness...
After reading the full comments carefully, I'm adding my thoughts on the matter. Perhaps it'll reboot the conversation! Let's hope!

First of all, I'll say that if there was any topic I always thought I'd find here would be this. Mai-HiME was a very clashing serie and this conversation was unavoidable. I was surprised that I didn't find my conclusion here thou, thinking it was an obvious one. (I'll get to it in another post)

I'll start with the Childs themselves. Each of them have flaws and advantages I've read and some I didn't consider and yet seem more than plausible. The one that someone refered about Kagutsuchi holder to be favorited by the Obsidian Lord and, therefore, bound to be stronger in order to win the Carnival. The Carnival was for the Obsidian Lord "enjoyment" and if it'd please him, then why not? After much thought and looking back, I believe this is a deal breaker revelation. Kagutsuchi could be the favourite but we don't know if it was true and without confirmation, we could only guess. We can, however, try counter evidencing.
EXAMPLE:
Consider this: What, other than the stated possibility, was the reason for Kagutsuchi to revive/restore after Artemis powerfull stricke?
It's an ability only owned by Kagutsuchi and should not be taken lightly. We can't simply state "Power" and leave it at that. Childs are supposed to be the same, with only particularities. They should die if facing their weakness, win in contrary.
Therefore, I'll look at the other Childs to interpret Kagutsuchi in this situation. What would happen if it was another child in that situation? Would it survive/ressurrect?

- I read somewhere "because none other than Childs/Orfans can kill another Child", therefore Kagutsuchi wouldn't die after any Artemis blow, therefore reappear. But there's a failure in this reasoning: Miyu killed Hari. And she was not a Child, even if artificial, unlike Artemis. So, scratch that.

-Another possibility I didn't hear discuss is that Kagutsuchi revived because Mai was sacrificing herself. This could click some sort of "glitch" and revive the character for "proper acting". If I was the Obsidian Lord I'd hate such possibility, he wanted control and sacrifices/suicides aren't. But then this reasoning would fail because there we're two sacrifices. The first was, as Midori Sugiura pointed out (jokingly or not) Midori sacrificed herself in the name of friendship and love. And the same occured with Natsuki, the one I didn't think that would have the character to do so. And in her case it was strong and clear. "It's all in you, Mai."
She knew she wouldn't come alive from her fight with Shizuru, no matter the winner. Ence, sacrifice. So, we should scratch it too.

- The fact that Kagutsuchi was partly inspired by a phoenix is another proof of such favouritism. He/she was designed to be stronger, if not enough, then restore. A bullet proof adversary. You can NOT win if he doesn't "stay dead".

I would conclude that Kagutsuchi could be interpreted as the favourited, therefore the stronger Child.
Perhaps that favouritism and eternal power given to Kagutsuchi was the downfall of the Obsidian Lord. Perhaps he never considered it'd backfire. But that's another conversation.

So, what do you guys think? Does it make sense?
And more importantly, do you have another theory to why Kagutsuchi survived?
Please do comment, I really love this topic! :D

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