Re: Which pairing is canon and which fanon (known as crack too)?

by MidnightPersona Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:16 pm

I've made a discovery/decision recently.

Canon/fanon/everything is in the eyes of the beholder to an extent. Because it's not like EVERY series has a set list of 'These are canon forever/will never change' and no one REALLY knows what'll happen after the series is over. I mean, I've noticed the way I see characters in HiME/Otome is FAR different than other members. I analyze the characters to death in the views of my experiences/life and others I've met whom are similar to the characters shown. For a while I'd noticed I'd get annoyed when people wouldn't see a character 'deep' when I see almost all as such. It bothered/still bothers me that some people make some people running jokes and don't seem to look at more, or even try to place mental disorders on characters I can honestly say they never had from the shows I've seen. But that's THEIR/YOUR interpretation. It's not MINE. BUT, I can LEARN from it, try and see where YOU'RE/THEIR coming from and decide for MYSELF if it fits the character or not and argue for/against and try to get them to see MY point of view.

Sometimes I feel that everyone (including me) is guilty at points of wanting everyone to see it THEIR way (on some level at least) when we should be more focused on what the series/characters mean for US. But, knowing what it means for other people can open our eyes to parts of them they'd rather hide because how they see/feel a character is can show a part of themselves they usual hide by allowing us to see into their minds-eye as-to what makes this series special, annoying, etc. for them.

Food for thought. :3

by **hildebrant** Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:39 pm

MidnightPersona wrote:I've made a discovery/decision recently.

Canon/fanon/everything is in the eyes of the beholder to an extent. Because it's not like EVERY series has a set list of 'These are canon forever/will never change' and no one REALLY knows what'll happen after the series is over. I mean, I've noticed the way I see characters in HiME/Otome is FAR different than other members. I analyze the characters to death in the views of my experiences/life and others I've met whom are similar to the characters shown. For a while I'd noticed I'd get annoyed when people wouldn't see a character 'deep' when I see almost all as such. It bothered/still bothers me that some people make some people running jokes and don't seem to look at more, or even try to place mental disorders on characters I can honestly say they never had from the shows I've seen. But that's THEIR/YOUR interpretation. It's not MINE. BUT, I can LEARN from it, try and see where YOU'RE/THEIR coming from and decide for MYSELF if it fits the character or not and argue for/against and try to get them to see MY point of view.

Sometimes I feel that everyone (including me) is guilty at points of wanting everyone to see it THEIR way (on some level at least) when we should be more focused on what the series/characters mean for US. But, knowing what it means for other people can open our eyes to parts of them they'd rather hide because how they see/feel a character is can show a part of themselves they usual hide by allowing us to see into their minds-eye as-to what makes this series special, annoying, etc. for them.

Food for thought. :3

Yesh Luu you do have a point in stating that none of the couples are concrete. The show has proven that quite a few times. I'm also with you in that viewing characters as we'd prefer them to be seen and adding a layer to their character that either never appeared in the show or something that just appeals to us by adding it to them, especially the mental disorders on characters, so I'm guilty in that regard by wanting others to see things my way as well, and yes the part about showing a part of ourselves through a character that we'd rather hide is another thing I'm pretty guilty of and this has indeed been some very insightful food for thought and thanks for bringing it up

by **Twisted Eternal Wolvetta** Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:54 pm

MidnightPersona wrote:I've made a discovery/decision recently.

Canon/fanon/everything is in the eyes of the beholder to an extent. Because it's not like EVERY series has a set list of 'These are canon forever/will never change' and no one REALLY knows what'll happen after the series is over. I mean, I've noticed the way I see characters in HiME/Otome is FAR different than other members. I analyze the characters to death in the views of my experiences/life and others I've met whom are similar to the characters shown. For a while I'd noticed I'd get annoyed when people wouldn't see a character 'deep' when I see almost all as such. It bothered/still bothers me that some people make some people running jokes and don't seem to look at more, or even try to place mental disorders on characters I can honestly say they never had from the shows I've seen. But that's THEIR/YOUR interpretation. It's not MINE. BUT, I can LEARN from it, try and see where YOU'RE/THEIR coming from and decide for MYSELF if it fits the character or not and argue for/against and try to get them to see MY point of view.

Sometimes I feel that everyone (including me) is guilty at points of wanting everyone to see it THEIR way (on some level at least) when we should be more focused on what the series/characters mean for US. But, knowing what it means for other people can open our eyes to parts of them they'd rather hide because how they see/feel a character is can show a part of themselves they usual hide by allowing us to see into their minds-eye as-to what makes this series special, annoying, etc. for them.

Food for thought. :3

That's a thing which I've done also, though, with the mental disorders I've only ever placed Tomoe under it since she relates so perfectly with BPD. But anyhow, it is like I've said before in the past - for some reason, there are so many people who don't give characters a chance and think they are something entirely different because of a screwed up hoax made on the selected character; an example is Yuuki, a lot of the fandom hate her for merely having her own belief and situation which revolves around a certain "couple".

If people were to truly listen to each other and analyse the characters properly then I honestly think the bar for which "character they like the most" would alter a hell of a lot.

I used to be "fair" on the lines of Shizuru, but these days I detest her merely because the fandom glorify her so much and hate on the characters who I absolutely adore.

It really is sad at times, I mean, I'll go this far, though I might get my grave dug for me.

I find that realistically, the person who Natsuki should have drifted over to in HiME was Takeda, but the fandom hate him. They say he is a pervert and is just looking to bang her. Well, his analysis proves he is the opposite; he looks out for Natsuki and cares for her, he shares that deep trait of of getting into embarrassing situations (he wouldn't have wanted to see Natsuki half naked, for hell's sake, he was minding his own business at the time when concentrating on his training for kendo). Wouldn't this give enough information for someone to respect him?

I'd honestly much prefer choosing him over Shizuru anytime.

With the analysis of Shizuru however, I've always had difficulties with her due to her being so clouded for who she truly is, but for a term I've always used for her: she is a wolf in sheep's clothing and will muddle with your mind at all costs.

Just look at her around characters, she is constantly twisting people with manipulation to get her own way; teasing Arika and Akira, "directing" Mai over to thinking to end up disappearing, the only reason Natsuki became the Gakuenchou, more than likely. I believe Sunrise made Shizuru one of the "background villains" to the Mai Series; that she is there but acts as an invisible wall against others.

This is why I call ShizTom canon, it isn't only because of their history together, but because of their mind-frames as well. If they were to be a team in a battle I doubt not many people would be able to stop them. Not Natsuki, not Haruka, Sara, Chie; perhaps if Mai and Maria were the opposite team, however.

But either way, there would have to be a whole group against them for this, simply because their willpower shoots off the charts for what they yearn for.

Its like when people start fighting over characters for their background, they say Natsuki has a worst past than Mai.

Natsuki -> Father ran off and left her money, mother died on the run with her.
Mai -> Attempted to save Takumi but failed to do so so her mother did so which brought on her death. Mai now has to work for countless hours for getting the money for Takumi's medication (think of how much sending him over to America for his heart surgery cost an average teenager).

At least Natsuki has money; but Mai will always have that heart wrenching guilt over the death of her mother along with the constant strain of working. Mai is probably the best character out in the Mai Series yet due to her sheer willpower and selflessness, so in reality, if you were to put Shizuru, Mai and Tomoe together you would get an impossible wall to overcome.

E,g. Dark-Mai's anguish and level of power is what she truly feels which she attempts to keep concealed and out of the way for others not to see.

by MidnightPersona Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:45 am

hildebrant wrote:
Yesh Luu you do have a point in stating that none of the couples are concrete. The show has proven that quite a few times. I'm also with you in that viewing characters as we'd prefer them to be seen and adding a layer to their character that either never appeared in the show or something that just appeals to us by adding it to them, especially the mental disorders on characters, so I'm guilty in that regard by wanting others to see things my way as well, and yes the part about showing a part of ourselves through a character that we'd rather hide is another thing I'm pretty guilty of and this has indeed been some very insightful food for thought and thanks for bringing it up

Er, MidnightPersona/Raven, not Luu. xD Did the purple not give it away ;D And yeah, nothing wrong with seeing ourselves in characters. It shows how deeply we all can connect to them/not connect depending on how different we are and how diverse the characters really are.

Twisted Eternal Wolvetta wrote:That's a thing which I've done also, though, with the mental disorders I've only ever placed Tomoe under it since she relates so perfectly with BPD. But anyhow, it is like I've said before in the past - for some reason, there are so many people who don't give characters a chance and think they are something entirely different because of a screwed up hoax made on the selected character; an example is Yuuki, a lot of the fandom hate her for merely having her own belief and situation which revolves around a certain "couple".

If people were to truly listen to each other and analyse the characters properly then I honestly think the bar for which "character they like the most" would alter a hell of a lot.

I used to be "fair" on the lines of Shizuru, but these days I detest her merely because the fandom glorify her so much and hate on the characters who I absolutely adore.

It really is sad at times, I mean, I'll go this far, though I might get my grave dug for me.

I find that realistically, the person who Natsuki should have drifted over to in HiME was Takeda, but the fandom hate him. They say he is a pervert and is just looking to bang her. Well, his analysis proves he is the opposite; he looks out for Natsuki and cares for her, he shares that deep trait of of getting into embarrassing situations (he wouldn't have wanted to see Natsuki half naked, for hell's sake, he was minding his own business at the time when concentrating on his training for kendo). Wouldn't this give enough information for someone to respect him?

I'd honestly much prefer choosing him over Shizuru anytime.

With the analysis of Shizuru however, I've always had difficulties with her due to her being so clouded for who she truly is, but for a term I've always used for her: she is a wolf in sheep's clothing and will muddle with your mind at all costs.

Just look at her around characters, she is constantly twisting people with manipulation to get her own way; teasing Arika and Akira, "directing" Mai over to thinking to end up disappearing, the only reason Natsuki became the Gakuenchou, more than likely. I believe Sunrise made Shizuru one of the "background villains" to the Mai Series; that she is there but acts as an invisible wall against others.

This is why I call ShizTom canon, it isn't only because of their history together, but because of their mind-frames as well. If they were to be a team in a battle I doubt not many people would be able to stop them. Not Natsuki, not Haruka, Sara, Chie; perhaps if Mai and Maria were the opposite team, however.

But either way, there would have to be a whole group against them for this, simply because their willpower shoots off the charts for what they yearn for.

Its like when people start fighting over characters for their background, they say Natsuki has a worst past than Mai.

Natsuki -> Father ran off and left her money, mother died on the run with her.
Mai -> Attempted to save Takumi but failed to do so so her mother did so which brought on her death. Mai now has to work for countless hours for getting the money for Takumi's medication (think of how much sending him over to America for his heart surgery cost an average teenager).

At least Natsuki has money; but Mai will always have that heart wrenching guilt over the death of her mother along with the constant strain of working. Mai is probably the best character out in the Mai Series yet due to her sheer willpower and selflessness, so in reality, if you were to put Shizuru, Mai and Tomoe together you would get an impossible wall to overcome.

E,g. Dark-Mai's anguish and level of power is what she truly feels which she attempts to keep concealed and out of the way for others not to see.

I agree, but I disagree. Shizuru isn't perfect, but I don't honestly think she's TRYING to be malicious, but I must agree that the praise she gets from the fandom bothers me greatly, but I am also someone who's not much on NatNao and other pairings... usually the ones involving Natsuki and Shizuru. I mean, I think the ShizNat fans have went to extremes to make it the 'best' pairing and have tried to demonize anyone whom would disagree. I, for one, find a lot of similarities between Shizuru and myself. Shizuru actually got me BACK into HiME after the Army, because I could finally understand her. She's just been so destroyed, overused, and abused by the fans that she's been twisted into a malevolent force in the fandom and that sickens me (And is why I almost never read any ShizNat stories). But, I think completely hating the actually character for perception is just as bad as the people whom hate on Tomoe. I admit, I hated Tomoe at first, but she grew on me in part because of you, but your extreme anti-Shizuru is completely understandable--but is put off as such an extreme that one would wonder if you could have a good opinion. I know you easily could, but with ShizNat fans running around like the pairing is going out of style you quickly lose sight of anything other than 'ugh, not another fucking ShizNat' but most ShizNat's aren't the actually pairing in my opinion. It's all AU and not even the actual characters to me. I'm one of those people whom thinks both Tomoe and Shizuru are equally as bad in their situation. Shizuru shouldn't have lead Tomoe on in the first place, but I would even admit that if I was in Shizuru's situation I'd do almost anything to get out--and she did. I'm not saying it was right, but Tomoe also abused/used Miyu in the same way--if not worse--than Shizuru used her. It's a cycle of pain in Otome. In HiME, Shizuru is far less a villain in my eyes. I must disagree with the desire to see her with Takeda, though. Takeda doesn't have the effect Shizuru has on Natsuki, I feel, and Natsuki, even if straight, wouldn't go for Takeda I believe. But, I have no hate for Takeda, I think he's pretty cool myself... just not for Natsuki. MaixNatsuki makes most sense to me, but I also like MaixTate, MaixMikoto too. I honestly think Mikoto and Tate fight later on over Mai, but I digress.

I love how you don't give two fucks what people think when you speak out against Shizuru, and I admire that, but I also feel the fandom has tainted the Shizuru you *could* see. I know it was starting to make me hate her for a while there (and Natsuki and Nao), but I reminded myself of WHY I liked them and how wrong the fans were doing the girls.

I wish I could just sit down with you and talk, it would be an exciting convo on a level to sitmulate my mind in real-time. xD

by **hildebrant** Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:37 am

MidnightPersona wrote:
hildebrant wrote:
Yesh Luu you do have a point in stating that none of the couples are concrete. The show has proven that quite a few times. I'm also with you in that viewing characters as we'd prefer them to be seen and adding a layer to their character that either never appeared in the show or something that just appeals to us by adding it to them, especially the mental disorders on characters, so I'm guilty in that regard by wanting others to see things my way as well, and yes the part about showing a part of ourselves through a character that we'd rather hide is another thing I'm pretty guilty of and this has indeed been some very insightful food for thought and thanks for bringing it up

Er, MidnightPersona/Raven, not Luu. xD Did the purple not give it away ;D And yeah, nothing wrong with seeing ourselves in characters. It shows how deeply we all can connect to them/not connect depending on how different we are and how diverse the characters really are.

Twisted Eternal Wolvetta wrote:That's a thing which I've done also, though, with the mental disorders I've only ever placed Tomoe under it since she relates so perfectly with BPD. But anyhow, it is like I've said before in the past - for some reason, there are so many people who don't give characters a chance and think they are something entirely different because of a screwed up hoax made on the selected character; an example is Yuuki, a lot of the fandom hate her for merely having her own belief and situation which revolves around a certain "couple".

If people were to truly listen to each other and analyse the characters properly then I honestly think the bar for which "character they like the most" would alter a hell of a lot.

I used to be "fair" on the lines of Shizuru, but these days I detest her merely because the fandom glorify her so much and hate on the characters who I absolutely adore.

It really is sad at times, I mean, I'll go this far, though I might get my grave dug for me.

I find that realistically, the person who Natsuki should have drifted over to in HiME was Takeda, but the fandom hate him. They say he is a pervert and is just looking to bang her. Well, his analysis proves he is the opposite; he looks out for Natsuki and cares for her, he shares that deep trait of of getting into embarrassing situations (he wouldn't have wanted to see Natsuki half naked, for hell's sake, he was minding his own business at the time when concentrating on his training for kendo). Wouldn't this give enough information for someone to respect him?

I'd honestly much prefer choosing him over Shizuru anytime.

With the analysis of Shizuru however, I've always had difficulties with her due to her being so clouded for who she truly is, but for a term I've always used for her: she is a wolf in sheep's clothing and will muddle with your mind at all costs.

Just look at her around characters, she is constantly twisting people with manipulation to get her own way; teasing Arika and Akira, "directing" Mai over to thinking to end up disappearing, the only reason Natsuki became the Gakuenchou, more than likely. I believe Sunrise made Shizuru one of the "background villains" to the Mai Series; that she is there but acts as an invisible wall against others.

This is why I call ShizTom canon, it isn't only because of their history together, but because of their mind-frames as well. If they were to be a team in a battle I doubt not many people would be able to stop them. Not Natsuki, not Haruka, Sara, Chie; perhaps if Mai and Maria were the opposite team, however.

But either way, there would have to be a whole group against them for this, simply because their willpower shoots off the charts for what they yearn for.

Its like when people start fighting over characters for their background, they say Natsuki has a worst past than Mai.

Natsuki -> Father ran off and left her money, mother died on the run with her.
Mai -> Attempted to save Takumi but failed to do so so her mother did so which brought on her death. Mai now has to work for countless hours for getting the money for Takumi's medication (think of how much sending him over to America for his heart surgery cost an average teenager).

At least Natsuki has money; but Mai will always have that heart wrenching guilt over the death of her mother along with the constant strain of working. Mai is probably the best character out in the Mai Series yet due to her sheer willpower and selflessness, so in reality, if you were to put Shizuru, Mai and Tomoe together you would get an impossible wall to overcome.

E,g. Dark-Mai's anguish and level of power is what she truly feels which she attempts to keep concealed and out of the way for others not to see.

I agree, but I disagree. Shizuru isn't perfect, but I don't honestly think she's TRYING to be malicious, but I must agree that the praise she gets from the fandom bothers me greatly, but I am also someone who's not much on NatNao and other pairings... usually the ones involving Natsuki and Shizuru. I mean, I think the ShizNat fans have went to extremes to make it the 'best' pairing and have tried to demonize anyone whom would disagree. I, for one, find a lot of similarities between Shizuru and myself. Shizuru actually got me BACK into HiME after the Army, because I could finally understand her. She's just been so destroyed, overused, and abused by the fans that she's been twisted into a malevolent force in the fandom and that sickens me (And is why I almost never read any ShizNat stories). But, I think completely hating the actually character for perception is just as bad as the people whom hate on Tomoe. I admit, I hated Tomoe at first, but she grew on me in part because of you, but your extreme anti-Shizuru is completely understandable--but is put off as such an extreme that one would wonder if you could have a good opinion. I know you easily could, but with ShizNat fans running around like the pairing is going out of style you quickly lose sight of anything other than 'ugh, not another fucking ShizNat' but most ShizNat's aren't the actually pairing in my opinion. It's all AU and not even the actual characters to me. I'm one of those people whom thinks both Tomoe and Shizuru are equally as bad in their situation. Shizuru shouldn't have lead Tomoe on in the first place, but I would even admit that if I was in Shizuru's situation I'd do almost anything to get out--and she did. I'm not saying it was right, but Tomoe also abused/used Miyu in the same way--if not worse--than Shizuru used her. It's a cycle of pain in Otome. In HiME, Shizuru is far less a villain in my eyes. I must disagree with the desire to see her with Takeda, though. Takeda doesn't have the effect Shizuru has on Natsuki, I feel, and Natsuki, even if straight, wouldn't go for Takeda I believe. But, I have no hate for Takeda, I think he's pretty cool myself... just not for Natsuki. MaixNatsuki makes most sense to me, but I also like MaixTate, MaixMikoto too. I honestly think Mikoto and Tate fight later on over Mai, but I digress.

I love how you don't give two fucks what people think when you speak out against Shizuru, and I admire that, but I also feel the fandom has tainted the Shizuru you *could* see. I know it was starting to make me hate her for a while there (and Natsuki and Nao), but I reminded myself of WHY I liked them and how wrong the fans were doing the girls.

I wish I could just sit down with you and talk, it would be an exciting convo on a level to sitmulate my mind in real-time. xD

Well I feel stupid for not noticing, its a combination of blind stupidity and it being late and the aforementioned depression on my part. I can't really speak about Shizuru or Tomoe as neither of them are my specialty or preferred interest, mine's just Yuuichi. Seeing how the fandom attacked him more or less had me implanting disorders and issues within him that never appeared in the show. In my mind I had him be melancholic and depressed and unwilling to even talk to anyone at all and only looking forward to the day when he would graduate from Fuuka and never come back. Hell I even had it so that all the encounters he had with Mai and Natsuki in the show would turn him off of both girls permanently as opposed to his actions in the series. Sometimes I even wish he had kept that more angry personality he had back before shiho talked him out of it but, I digress and I'm going to stop before I sound like even more of a broken record

by **SpiralDasher** Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:29 am

Ho boy. So many long posts. Almost tl;dr'd. Okay, Dash, you can do this.

MidnightPersona wrote:Canon/fanon/everything is in the eyes of the beholder to an extent. Because it's not like EVERY series has a set list of 'These are canon forever/will never change' and no one REALLY knows what'll happen after the series is over. I mean, I've noticed the way I see characters in HiME/Otome is FAR different than other members. I analyze the characters to death in the views of my experiences/life and others I've met whom are similar to the characters shown. For a while I'd noticed I'd get annoyed when people wouldn't see a character 'deep' when I see almost all as such. It bothered/still bothers me that some people make some people running jokes and don't seem to look at more, or even try to place mental disorders on characters I can honestly say they never had from the shows I've seen. But that's THEIR/YOUR interpretation. It's not MINE. BUT, I can LEARN from it, try and see where YOU'RE/THEIR coming from and decide for MYSELF if it fits the character or not and argue for/against and try to get them to see MY point of view.

Sometimes I feel that everyone (including me) is guilty at points of wanting everyone to see it THEIR way (on some level at least) when we should be more focused on what the series/characters mean for US. But, knowing what it means for other people can open our eyes to parts of them they'd rather hide because how they see/feel a character is can show a part of themselves they usual hide by allowing us to see into their minds-eye as-to what makes this series special, annoying, etc. for them.

I agree with this. Different people like or dislike different characters for different reasons. No reason they can't all be right. It's when someone annoying tries to force their views and opinions onto other people that the trouble starts.
I love Midori. It's no surprised to anyone that she's my favorite character and I think she's complete awesome-sause, in both Hime and Otome. I've met others that don't share that view, that find her annoyingly childish in Hime, not acting like an adult, or in Otome they think she's too serious/harsh and needs to lighten up (telling a cripple kid that he needs to stand on his own without help). However, I can relate to it, being that twenty-something-year-old child at heart, and I can only hope that I'll be able to overcome obstacles that get in mine and my friend's way when they come, and do the right thing when it counts.
Each to their own. =)

Twisted Eternal Wolvetta wrote:[...]for some reason, there are so many people who don't give characters a chance and think they are something entirely different because of a screwed up hoax made on the selected character; an example is Yuuki, a lot of the fandom hate her for merely having her own belief and situation which revolves around a certain "couple".

My hate for her has nothing to do with that "mysterious couple" you speak of. I hate her for her character! =D She isn't as bad in Otome, but there she turns into a trickster, which I find more annoying than anything. I find her better in Otome, but I still dislike her character.

Twisted Eternal Wolvetta wrote:Its like when people start fighting over characters for their background, they say Natsuki has a worst past than Mai.
Natsuki -> Father ran off and left her money, mother died on the run with her.
Mai -> Attempted to save Takumi but failed to do so so her mother did so which brought on her death. Mai now has to work for countless hours for getting the money for Takumi's medication (think of how much sending him over to America for his heart surgery cost an average teenager).

This. This. This. This. THIS.

I adore Mai as the main character I WOULDN'T have it ANY other way.
She's relatable and nice and honest friend material, she's had to go through so much and still has yet more to overcome as the series starts, she's barely scraping by as it is when suddenly everything seems to go to hell. On top of working for her brother's medication, her mother has died when she was young and we don't hear anything about the father. Then she suddenly has to wield a giant fire dragon and save humanity, but she's kind of dupped into that because it's the only way to save her brother at the time. Then she has to deal with the complications falling in love while suddenly having to battle against all of the friends you've just made to save the planet form destruction.
You genuinely want to see her overcome everything because she's earned it and you feel sympathetic.

I also agree with some other things said, but they've been touched upon already and I don't want to simply repeat what others have already posted.

--

My only goal in this fandom is the spread the Midori/Youko love. It's not canon, I know they're just friends in canon, but I find it more plausible that a professor we only know for 15 minutes, and who doesn't even present in Otome. Then again, with this fandom I don't find people who are particularly against Midori/Youko. They just aren't written for (like Shiznat, NatNao, Harukino) so I try to make the pairing's presence known. =P

by **Twisted Eternal Wolvetta** Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:57 am

TOO MANY POSTS.

MidnightPersona wrote:I agree, but I disagree. Shizuru isn't perfect, but I don't honestly think she's TRYING to be malicious, but I must agree that the praise she gets from the fandom bothers me greatly, but I am also someone who's not much on NatNao and other pairings... usually the ones involving Natsuki and Shizuru. I mean, I think the ShizNat fans have went to extremes to make it the 'best' pairing and have tried to demonize anyone whom would disagree. I, for one, find a lot of similarities between Shizuru and myself. Shizuru actually got me BACK into HiME after the Army, because I could finally understand her. She's just been so destroyed, overused, and abused by the fans that she's been twisted into a malevolent force in the fandom and that sickens me (And is why I almost never read any ShizNat stories). But, I think completely hating the actually character for perception is just as bad as the people whom hate on Tomoe. I admit, I hated Tomoe at first, but she grew on me in part because of you, but your extreme anti-Shizuru is completely understandable--but is put off as such an extreme that one would wonder if you could have a good opinion. I know you easily could, but with ShizNat fans running around like the pairing is going out of style you quickly lose sight of anything other than 'ugh, not another fucking ShizNat' but most ShizNat's aren't the actually pairing in my opinion. It's all AU and not even the actual characters to me. I'm one of those people whom thinks both Tomoe and Shizuru are equally as bad in their situation. Shizuru shouldn't have lead Tomoe on in the first place, but I would even admit that if I was in Shizuru's situation I'd do almost anything to get out--and she did. I'm not saying it was right, but Tomoe also abused/used Miyu in the same way--if not worse--than Shizuru used her. It's a cycle of pain in Otome. In HiME, Shizuru is far less a villain in my eyes. I must disagree with the desire to see her with Takeda, though. Takeda doesn't have the effect Shizuru has on Natsuki, I feel, and Natsuki, even if straight, wouldn't go for Takeda I believe. But, I have no hate for Takeda, I think he's pretty cool myself... just not for Natsuki. MaixNatsuki makes most sense to me, but I also like MaixTate, MaixMikoto too. I honestly think Mikoto and Tate fight later on over Mai, but I digress.

I love how you don't give two fucks what people think when you speak out against Shizuru, and I admire that, but I also feel the fandom has tainted the Shizuru you *could* see. I know it was starting to make me hate her for a while there (and Natsuki and Nao), but I reminded myself of WHY I liked them and how wrong the fans were doing the girls.

I wish I could just sit down with you and talk, it would be an exciting convo on a level to sitmulate my mind in real-time. xD

LOL, well, you know how it is; it has been a good few years since I first joined the fandom and I'm still working things out, character analysis, attempting to connect HiME and Otome along with building in the firm walls of what countries the nations and other such references are based on to Earth here in Otome.

I'm glad you feel exactly how I feel for the ShizNatsu side of it always being there. I'm trying to work out every character as I go, but after all, the strain of fans constantly mucking things up makes it incredibly difficult to do anything.

I can understand Fujino's part of attempting to "get out" and to do anything for Natsuki, considering during the HiME Carnival that is going to be your only mindset during the time, to save your "Most Precious Person", though her losing control so rashly does irk me, whilst Tomoe had more reason to (the world being against her whilst battling Otome, Viola just throwing her aside instead of guiding her through everything to aid in her actions to stop causing chaos for everyone, but most importantly for Tomoe herself).

Though with Viola... she highly puts me on edge for obvious reasons.

Tomoe however, of course, through all her own issues formed herself into a version of Viola which is just as bad; the events with Miya just strengthening this, but I've always hated how Shizuru gets the larger stick than Tomoe. The fandom treat Tomoe so... horribly and damn her from existence (making her do things in fan-fiction which she would never do).

But with Mai Otome: Rystel which I am creating, I am hoping to change everything and put everyone in character. This is why I am doing so much thinking for Mai Otome lately, because I want this right, because after all, for this animation there is always the slightest chance of Sunrise finding out about it and I don't want it not being in character else there'll be more chance of them demanding me to stop.

But hopefully this'll not be the case?

Its highly definite of Mai and Natsuki being a proper, stable pairing for each other, but after all, we don't truly know the characters' sexuality, we can only believe in our options over what they may be.

But I what I believe they could be is that Mai and Natsuki are both pansexual, it'd make the most sense, especially since Mai has such an understanding personality with so many people, she doesn't give a damn for what someone's background is, she just tries to see their point of view before responding to them. e.g. Reito, Natsuki, Tate, etc.

I'm hoping however that the next batch of characters I'll be able to analyse fully are Shizuru and Haruka.

hildebrant wrote:Well I feel stupid for not noticing, its a combination of blind stupidity and it being late and the aforementioned depression on my part. I can't really speak about Shizuru or Tomoe as neither of them are my specialty or preferred interest, mine's just Yuuichi. Seeing how the fandom attacked him more or less had me implanting disorders and issues within him that never appeared in the show. In my mind I had him be melancholic and depressed and unwilling to even talk to anyone at all and only looking forward to the day when he would graduate from Fuuka and never come back. Hell I even had it so that all the encounters he had with Mai and Natsuki in the show would turn him off of both girls permanently as opposed to his actions in the series. Sometimes I even wish he had kept that more angry personality he had back before shiho talked him out of it but, I digress and I'm going to stop before I sound like even more of a broken record.

But we can understand your point entirely, because of the fandom it has stopped the Mai Series from staying within its true form and progressing through popularity. I've noticed that because people are unable to see the true image of their favourite character because of others this has forced the Mai Series to come to a complete and utter halt; I'll say this again for my belief -> look at the Touhou Project fan base, it is absolutely gigantic and was solely created by a small group originally and is now canonly only developed by one creator now like your classic bedroom video game developers back in the 80s.

If the fandom was to trust and listen to each other then we would be able to see the true character for everything. I myself is a little edgy with Tate, but that is only because he couldn't make up his mind over what to do exactly, but after all, in such a situation everyone is going to be so confused in the Carnival. I just wish he had done something better about it instead of leaving it to last minute to sort the issues out between himself, Shiho and Mai.

SpiralDasher wrote:My hate for her has nothing to do with that "mysterious couple" you speak of. I hate her for her character! =D She isn't as bad in Otome, but there she turns into a trickster, which I find more annoying than anything. I find her better in Otome, but I still dislike her character.

A bit like me with my dislike to certain characters as well then. o.o

Though I can fully understand the irk for Yuuki, she was rather... out of control, you could say, even though she was just trying to get around in her own way.

SpiralDasher wrote:This. This. This. This. THIS.

I adore Mai as the main character I WOULDN'T have it ANY other way.
She's relatable and nice and honest friend material, she's had to go through so much and still has yet more to overcome as the series starts, she's barely scraping by as it is when suddenly everything seems to go to hell. On top of working for her brother's medication, her mother has died when she was young and we don't hear anything about the father. Then she suddenly has to wield a giant fire dragon and save humanity, but she's kind of dupped into that because it's the only way to save her brother at the time. Then she has to deal with the complications falling in love while suddenly having to battle against all of the friends you've just made to save the planet form destruction.
You genuinely want to see her overcome everything because she's earned it and you feel sympathetic.

I also agree with some other things said, but they've been touched upon already and I don't want to simply repeat what others have already posted.

--

My only goal in this fandom is the spread the Midori/Youko love. It's not canon, I know they're just friends in canon, but I find it more plausible that a professor we only know for 15 minutes, and who doesn't even present in Otome. Then again, with this fandom I don't find people who are particularly against Midori/Youko. They just aren't written for (like Shiznat, NatNao, Harukino) so I try to make the pairing's presence known. =P

With Mai, I'm seriously hoping Sunrise bring her back as a full main character, because the new ones which have been coming out are rather... well, so childish and stale compared to her (Arika literally had so little character development compared to her). If there was a role model to pick from in the Mai Series I would instantly pick Mai for so many of her positive traits, I adore Tomoe, but she is definitely not the character to look up to.

I find that Midori/Youko works in different lights, they are clearly a pairing which can easily go further at any time from their friendship (from a huge event, let's say). But since they are implied in both HiME and Otome this could easily mean that Sunrise have plans for them like they had done with HaruKino, to bring them more into the limelight for the next series; this hopefully being Mai HiME: Mao.

irina

When will the fandom look up to me?!

by MidnightPersona Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:00 am

Guys, your posts are all amazing and far more than I could expect, really. So much to reply to, so little time! But I must say I enjoy what's being said.

Yuuichi is abused and neglected for pairing Mai with only females usually, yes. I think it's because most lesbians (not all, but most that I've seen/met) are anti-hetero couples. Now, I'm a lesbian whom likes hetero and even yaoi~ I mean, I'd enjoy some MaixMikoto, some MaixTate, and some TatexReito~ All completely different, but they can be done.

And I must agree that the fans ruin the fandom. I never thought having so many homo/bisexuals could RUIN something so good at points. ShizNat is good, but it isn't EVERYTHING. In fact, if it wasn't for Haruka and Yukino I woulda lost interest early on, but that's just me. Yukino being a HiME over Haruka shocked me, but made complete sense! I mean, Haruka being a HiME woulda been OP... even against Shizuru! Because if it came down to it... HaruKino vs Shizuru? Cuz Natsuki would've still been all "Duran! No Duran? Sad panda." And that would've ruined the 'story line' of the show, but I digress.

The fans need to learn understanding. Also, one should not feel guilty about seeing themselves in a character or pushing the characters limits... until it gets to the point that fans have pushed ShizNat to where, if someone hear/read about them before watching HiME/Otome they wouldn't know who these completely different characters in the show were! It's a shallow thought process.

If we work together, mayhaps we can show people what it means to be a real fan. But, it takes all sorts to make things better. It makes me proud/excited that we're all discussing this maturely and not being hateful/spiteful like some humans can be. I thank you all for that. We're taking criticism and trying to understand and connect thoughts/mindsets.

The internet is wonky atm so I'll go for now, but thanks guys. :3 This really made me happy.

by **SpiralDasher** Wed May 02, 2012 4:36 am

Twisted Eternal Wolvetta wrote:With Mai, I'm seriously hoping Sunrise bring her back as a full main character, because the new ones which have been coming out are rather... well, so childish and stale compared to her (Arika literally had so little character development compared to her). If there was a role model to pick from in the Mai Series I would instantly pick Mai for so many of her positive traits, I adore Tomoe, but she is definitely not the character to look up to.

I find that Midori/Youko works in different lights, they are clearly a pairing which can easily go further at any time from their friendship (from a huge event, let's say). But since they are implied in both HiME and Otome this could easily mean that Sunrise have plans for them like they had done with HaruKino, to bring them more into the limelight for the next series; this hopefully being Mai HiME: Mao.

When will the fandom look up to me?!

I would love Mai as the main character again because I agree that the main characters are getting childish. Mao doesn't look any better than Arika, based on the pictures I've seen of her, and I wasn't the biggest fan of Arika (to put it lightly), or Mayo. Unfortunately, I don't see how Mai could be the main character again, for the Mai Hime series, while having a slapped-together closing "battle" (if you can call flying into the star with smiles on their faces a battle), was pretty final.
Unless there's yet another reincarnation after Otome-verse? (And the Destiny novel with Mayo.) But the logical next step after magical girls... then ~~magical leotards~~ power suits... is... mechas...... dear god, no. =_=

I hope Sunrise takes the same path with Midori/Youko as they did with Harukino! <3

I bet Irina would turn into Youko's lab assistant in the next series, or a fellow scientist. She was studying with Gal in Zwei.

MidnightPersona wrote:Yuuichi is abused and neglected for pairing Mai with only females usually, yes. I think it's because most lesbians (not all, but most that I've seen/met) are anti-hetero couples. Now, I'm a lesbian whom likes hetero and even yaoi~ I mean, I'd enjoy some MaixMikoto, some MaixTate, and some TatexReito~ All completely different, but they can be done.

I'm not really a Mai/Mikoto shipper, I like Nao/Mikoto better. That said, I like pairing Mai with both Reito and Tate equally. I don't hate Tate, I'm more indifferent about him than anything. Then again, I also ship Reito/Nagi ship. XD I'm squimish about Tate/Shiho, but that's more of a very vague dislike for Shiho than the ship itself, so I don't mind that pairing either.
I've seen some one-sided Reito/Tate (one-sided on Reito's part because Tate's with Mai), and I wouldn't mind reading a Reito/Tate/Takeda triangle (in that order) for the lawlz. P;

by **Luu Sky Sapphire** Sun May 13, 2012 7:48 pm

SpiralDasher wrote:I'm not really a Mai/Mikoto shipper, I like Nao/Mikoto better.

Hey Dash, please explain your support of Nao x Mikoto. :3 I assume it has a lot to do with the events of Episode 7: "Lost Kittens". If I were to follow that ship, it would be because of the temptation from Nao. Very Pinocchio-ish, Mikoto is so innocent and kinda stupid to know the basics of right and wrong. So I can see that working in a relationship way.

Mikoto Minagi

: Being bad is a lot of fun, ain't it!?

nao lick

: Yeah! *high fives*

mai hime

: MIKOTO! SO THIS WHAT YOU'VE BEEN DOING DURING LATE NIGHTS! HOW DO YOU EXPECT TO BE A REAL GIRL!?

by **SpiralDasher** Fri May 18, 2012 2:54 am

Actually its got nothing to do with that episode and more revolves around their personalities and the fact that they seem to spend more time together than shown. We're following Mai around so we don't see much of what happens in other character's lives, but it's revealed that Nao and Mikoto are in the same class, and have interactions. In the epilogue, it shows Mikoto and Nao eating ice pops together, showing that they hang out with one another on friendly terms.

As for the personality thing, I think they're compatible. Nao is withdrawn and likes to manipulate others, but I can just as easily see Nao being swept away in Mikoto's fast pace. Nao needs someone who is genuinely there to help her open up and trust other, and who better than the always-happy-and-smiling Mikoto? =)

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