NatNao, ShizNatNao, ShizNao... why it really doesn't make sense.

by MidnightPersona Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:57 pm

Before I begin I have a warning: This is my opinion. If you do not like it, debate. But don't expect my view to change as I do not expect yours to. I just need to get this off my chest.

Note about this thread: This post is about NATNAO, SHIZNAO, AND SHIZNATNAO and a SPECIFIC aspect of the pairing. I.e. that many people I have seen say that is is possible without being considered crack. This is not a thread against crack or about other pairings. There are pairs that have some/more canon defense whether canon or not, but if you wanna discuss it there IS a crack thread. I want questions/debates about the stuff I brought up below. This thread is going off-track and I'd like someone to reply to this post.

Also... please read this entire post to understand what I am asking. If you cannot understand something, I will clarify. Thank you. Now, on subject...

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Why I hate NatNao, ShizNao, and ShizNatNao:

These pairings are possibly the stupidest I have seen in HiME. Also, they tend to have very stupid use of defense by those who like it.

The main defense I see and why it is null-n-void: Bondage (Mostly NatNao).

Spiders. They do not 'like' bondage. They spin webs to capture their prey. Also, when they catch 'smaller' prey they sometimes allow it to live in their web to catch bigger prey. The spider wants food, and it get's it. This is not bondage.

I myself DO enjoy BDSM and the concept of bondage... which is why I find ANGER with NatNao (or ShizNatNao) fans who say 'ohh~ bondage~' when they see Natsuki 'bound' by Nao.

1.) Nao is NOT being sexual.
Nao captures Natsuki for REVENGE. She wants Natsuki to, not only lose her eye, but also to SUFFER. Not in a kink way, not cuz Nao LOVES to give and receive pain (Sadomasocist). Nao is physically dramatized by her loss of an eye. It hurts her everyday and NOT in a good way. Nao sees Natsuki as the cause of this, most-likely because Natsuki was the one who 'attacked' her and falsely accused her of something she did not do. Nao get's ENJOYMENT from the thought of maiming and killing Natsuki, not sexing her.

2.) Prey to catch bigger prey: Why Shizuru
Now, after Shizuru rescues Natsuki she makes a mistake: She did not kill the Child. So now the spider is after vengeance. Now, she works to 'capture' the smaller prey again i.e. Natsuki to use against the 'bigger prey' i.e. Shizuru. She is, again, not keeping Natsuki bound for any type of sexual please nor to get Shizuru and give her sexual pleasure. It is to kill, destroy, make them suffer, and get revenge. Nothing about Natsuki being bound or anything that happens between the 3 characters is sexual. The only 'sexual' parts for ShizNat are during scenes with no Nao and the only other 'pair' to notice it in person before the end of the series is HaruKino. Nao technically sees Shizuru's devotion for Natsuki, but she's to focused on revenge to care about anything but using it to her advantage.

3.) But what about BEFORE Yukariko set's Nao up!?! THE CAKE WARS!
Alright, I can admit I can see slightly where you may think there is 'sexual tension' between Nao and Natsuki... but honestly? That's NOT Natsuki. Even if Nao was, which honestly? The girl is too self-centered and focused on her 'plans' to give two fucks about dating anyone, Natsuki isn't the type to fight with/threaten someone she cares about and she more sees Nao as someone she only dealt with when she HAD to. Also, Shizuru wouldn't have sat idly by if she thought Natsuki was at ALL interested in Nao. In fact, I do think Shizuru woulda done a lot more sooner if that was the case. For example, I can be a flirt and see it as fine as long as it isn't srs bsns but if I saw my girlfriend flirting with someone and either party was being serious I wouldn't promise that the second party would enjoy my wrath. So, honestly, if they were 'flirting' that's where it ends, because Shizuru would be able to tell the difference and I assure you her eyes were on Natsuki the ENTIRE TIME.

4.) But-but--
I am done for now. If anyone has anything to add/challenge/etc go ahead. I'll be waiting.

Conclusion: NatNao, ShizNatNao, and ShizNao are fan-made pairings that make the least sense, to me, in the series. All the 'defenses' for them can be easily shot down and most 'fans' of the pairing make-up new/altered personality for the three characters so, really, it isn't even the canon characters anymore but fan-made versions whom, in my opinion, are far weaker and very mary sue like. Therefore, I am not into srs bsns NatNao/ShizNatNao/ShizNao.

by **Cheshire Kat** Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:43 pm

Awesome post, Raven. :) I have to agree with you completely on this; you nailed Nao's character along with Natsuki's/Shizuru's.

I also have to say I think that Nao is asexual in HiME - she doesn't seem to have any interest in either the same or opposite sex. This would probably be due to the trauma she suffered as a child: her mother was horribly sexually assaulted. That would waver her away from any intimacy.

by MidnightPersona Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:59 pm

Cheshire Kat wrote:Awesome post, Raven. :) I have to agree with you completely on this; you nailed Nao's character along with Natsuki's/Shizuru's.

It's what I do best. *bows* Glad you liked it~

Cheshire Kat wrote:I also have to say I think that Nao is asexual in HiME - she doesn't seem to have any interest in either the same or opposite sex. This would probably be due to the trauma she suffered as a child: her mother was horribly sexually assaulted. That would waver her away from any intimacy.

I agree wholeheartedly, which is another reason why I am against Nao in most pairings. If I do use Nao for a pairing (such as with Tate in my Story Change of Heart) I made it manga-verse Nao because that version is *clearly* sexual, but this post is discussing anime-verse, obviously. Still, Nao is even a nun at the end which also shows her desire to not be with anyone remains, to me at least.

by **Ice Silver Crystal** Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:25 pm

i never understand shiznao the most.
the question that always came up in my head was why would enemies have sex with each other??
right, da? ^.^'

by **Luu Sky Sapphire** Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:31 am

I've mentioned in the NatNao thread...

NatNao... what is the deal?!

...that the two could work together if the circumstances were altered. The way it is now though? Nope, it's all geared towards ShizNat, leaving Nao with little to no one she can call a friend. At best.

Ice Silver Crystal said it best when it comes to ShizNao. Nao tried to kill Shizuru for interfering with her plans and Shizuru tried to off Nao for messing with her girl. Yup, I can see why they find each other so appealing.

Tell me Nao, what did you do that stole Shizuru's heart exactly? Threatening to repay Natsuki for damaging your eye? Oooo, ~~my non-existent~~ woman parts are tingling~~

Come on. ^^;

by **CaptainVonCookie** Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:05 pm

I wholeheartedly agree!!
Though well, sex with enemies is quite fun actually. Doesn't need to be rational and with feelings, just passionate and wild. I can see ShizNao happening that way if Kuga decides to break Shizuru's heart. All you need is a fiery argument and an available surface nearby!

by **Blackfang64** Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:12 pm

Hm, while you do make a good statement Raven about NatNao, ShizNao and ShizNatNao and how unlogical it is, the pairings depending under circumstances can actually work better then you think.

NatNao pairing would be my one of most favourite, not just because of the idea of enemies loving each other (Although that is a very used concept in fanfic writing) but because unlike with Shizuru, Nao can relate to Natsuki pains and her traumatised past. Natsuki shows close to the end of the series no grudge towards Nao, to the point of standing before Kiyohime to stop Shizuru from killing her. I guess that's really the idea of where people get an intention that Nao could possibly fall for Natsuki, but I'll leave it at that.

As for ShizNao, personally this is a rather difficult pair to write about, mainly as you stated with Shizuru's relationship with Natsuki, as Shizuru doesn't seem that interested to give up on Natsuki anytime soon. In terms of revenge, either side has it in for the other (Shizuru for killing Nao's mother and Nao for kidnapping Natsuki twice) but what's interesting is when the two put aside the idea of revenge and come to peace with the other (but that will never happen). I guess what really makes this pairing interesting is the idea of enemies loving each other (Although not very original)

Finally for ShizNatNao, most of the time this pairing involves a love triangle between characters, which does make an interesting addition for plot. Although, I wish there were more pairings actually involving the three, particularly in... I'd rather not say.

I guess really the meaning for the creations of these pairings to bring variety to My HiME, i mean let's admit, nearly 90% of the pairings of My HiME fanfiction are ShizNat, which can get very boring at times. Come on raven, even you would have to admit a different would be slightly more interesting then reading another ShizNat fic with same basic plot and characters. I have nothing against about what you said about the pairings as everyone is entitled to their opinion (but i can't halp see some biasism as all the pairings you have mention have Nao in them) Razz

In close, would you rather then ShizHaruka, NatHaruka or NaoHaruka then? Razz

by MidnightPersona Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:39 am

Blackfang64 wrote:NatNao pairing would be my one of most favourite, not just because of the idea of enemies loving each other (Although that is a very used concept in fanfic writing) but because unlike with Shizuru, Nao can relate to Natsuki pains and her traumatised past. Natsuki shows close to the end of the series no grudge towards Nao, to the point of standing before Kiyohime to stop Shizuru from killing her. I guess that's really the idea of where people get an intention that Nao could possibly fall for Natsuki, but I'll leave it at that.

You see, the difference in this is that Natsuki doesn't stop Shizuru FOR Nao. She stops Shizuru for Shizuru and because Natsuki is a nice person. Yes, she can understand Nao, but she also doesn't want to see Shizuru continue to be a beast. In that moment she does admit similarities to Nao, which would work except those similarities do not go to 'love'. I know I admit similarities to certain someone most people I know dislike and even hate. I can admit to the hate at one point, but I realized something. Those similarities, though they can be bad, also give me a certain understanding of said-person and made me realize that I have m own issues I need to work through, but there were some things I did learn from this person and they're things I cherish because I learned certain things not to do and, in the same token, some things, shockingly, I perhaps should do. Not to an extreme where this person did, but slightly. Does this mean I love them romantically? I'll admit the similarities gave me a crush, but it was more of a desire to keep what's happened to me from happening to them, but you gotta let people do their own thing and it wasn't something that ever should or could be and I'm more than happy with that. Yes, Natsuki sees similarities but there's a difference for her feelings toward Nao than her feelings toward Shizuru. Also, there is absolutly no proof that Shizuru didn't have a traumatic childhood. She's distant, untrusting, and manipulative and no one can quite figure her out. She does what she wants, yet tries to stay within her rule-set until pushed to break--but it took a lot to make her break. Nao and Natsuki, in the canon setting, will not ever be more than friends because there's a bond for friendship, yes, but Nao needs someone strong, without too many issues or who ignores them for her, who can look out for her and be strong. Natsuki, though strong, has her own issues to deal with and has a strong bond with Shizuru, even if only snipits are seen thoughout the series. Natsuki relies on Shizuru deeply and goes out of her way to keep Shizuru out of everything to protect her from everything, including herself. All Nao is to Natsuki is a sign, to Natsuki at least, of what she could become and would have become without Shizuru.

Blackfang64 wrote:As for ShizNao, personally this is a rather difficult pair to write about, mainly as you stated with Shizuru's relationship with Natsuki, as Shizuru doesn't seem that interested to give up on Natsuki anytime soon. In terms of revenge, either side has it in for the other (Shizuru for killing Nao's mother and Nao for kidnapping Natsuki twice) but what's interesting is when the two put aside the idea of revenge and come to peace with the other (but that will never happen). I guess what really makes this pairing interesting is the idea of enemies loving each other (Although not very original)

Just because an idea is interesting, doesn't make it plausible. I don't mind crack, don't get me wrong, but the amount of people who thing this, ShizNatNao, and NatNao are So kawaii and canon~ <3 annoy me. If you like your crack, admit it to be crack. In this topic I am going for the canon only. Though, I must admit even I like some ShizNao at points, more than NatNao really, because I will admit they look hot. But logically? Only in a seriously AU setting with lots of changes and, even then, best watch out for wandering Natsuki's. It just can't work as canon.

Blackfang64 wrote:Finally for ShizNatNao, most of the time this pairing involves a love triangle between characters, which does make an interesting addition for plot. Although, I wish there were more pairings actually involving the three, particularly in... I'd rather not say.

Love Triangles are never fun, even when all involved think it'll work. Someone will always be left out and someone will always be more 'loved' for another. My opinion is this is so ShizNat fans can have their cake and eat it too. i.e. they get their ShizNat and NatNao all in one go. Which, in truth, is kinda silly to me. Because the idea of Shizuru sharing or losing Natsuki is slim to none, more on none. Though, AU I'm sure it can happen, but not canon-wise.

Blackfang64 wrote:I guess really the meaning for the creations of these pairings to bring variety to My HiME, i mean let's admit, nearly 90% of the pairings of My HiME fanfiction are ShizNat, which can get very boring at times. Come on raven, even you would have to admit a different would be slightly more interesting then reading another ShizNat fic with same basic plot and characters. I have nothing against about what you said about the pairings as everyone is entitled to their opinion (but i can't halp see some biasism as all the pairings you have mention have Nao in them)

Actually, I cannot admit I am interested in any NatNao, ShizNao, or ShizNatNao. When I go for crack I go for crack that I can see working. MaiHo (Mai and Shiho) can actually work, given the right circumstanced--even in canon. Also, most ShizNat fanfiction is because they're obviously gay. Other pairings, like my favorite HaruKino, are ignored even though they have a strong basis and, well, people can be stuck. I've read HaruKino fics that made me cry and stay up for hours every time I read them because they make so much sense. I avoid any ShizNat most of the time, and I've only read one NatNao that I liked and that was by HollowPoint. It involved Nao's birthday. I don't dislike all crack, but I hate how overdone NatNao and this is. I mean, it's almost as overdone as ShizNat. Also, the reason I focused on pairings with Nao was because I was making the thread for these three specifically. I've made my opinion known before I think the pairings and their defenses are ridiculous. I just wanted to disprove most of why the 'defenses' given are ridiculous. Basically, I just want people to call their crack for what it is: Crack. I want to see people stop trying to canonize it.

Blackfang64 wrote:In close, would you rather then ShizHaruka, NatHaruka or NaoHaruka then?

HaruShiz could work in a more AU setting, with tons of alcohol, or if both their sig. others died. Even then, they're more best friends than anything cuz Haruka is to Yukino as Shizuru is to Natsuki. I mean, really. I'm the Resident HaruKino Fanwhore, not the Resident Haruka-Breed-With-All-The-Things Fanwhore. :p

And Nao with Haruka makes as much sense as Takumi with Mikoto. I mean, seriously? Why does Nao have to be with anyone? She's more asexual than anything and does not focus on relationships. She has her own shit to work out behind the scenes after the series before you can even figure out whether she IS straight or lesbian or bi. Nao should just be left with Nao, but under some circumstances I could see her with Mikoto or Shiho in a few year. And by 'few' I mean maybe college. Maybe.

Anything else?

by Yuri-hime Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:56 am

Does it really matter? The case could be made that Shizuru and Natsuki shouldn't be together because of 'what Shizuru did to Natsuki', and that Natsuki 'doesn't love Shizuru the way Shizuru loves her'. The same case can be made against Haruka/Yukino, and the biggest point against this pairing is Haruka is straight.

This reasoning holds true for any fandom pairing. Many of the pairings people ship would have absolutely no possibility canonically. But we as pairing-lovers don't care. If the two characters you love can somehow be written well, and be put into a situation where a relationship can actually be made to work, then isn't that what's truly important? I for one could never see Tomoe with Shizuru, but if someone shipped that pairing and could actually make it work somehow, I'm not going to begrudge them. To each their own.

by **Luu Sky Sapphire** Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:16 pm

Yuri-hime wrote:Does it really matter? The case could be made that Shizuru and Natsuki shouldn't be together because of 'what Shizuru did to Natsuki', and that Natsuki 'doesn't love Shizuru the way Shizuru loves her'. The same case can be made against Haruka/Yukino, and the biggest point against this pairing is Haruka is straight.

This reasoning holds true for any fandom pairing. Many of the pairings people ship would have absolutely no possibility canonically. But we as pairing-lovers don't care. If the two characters you love can somehow be written well, and be put into a situation where a relationship can actually be made to work, then isn't that what's truly important? I for one could never see Tomoe with Shizuru, but if someone shipped that pairing and could actually make it work somehow, I'm not going to begrudge them. To each their own.

Raven is trying to say that when it comes to fanon pairings, a lot of fans will be subjective. She is aware of this, she just wants fans to own up to it and try not to force it down people throats. Specifically, the people who follow the canon relationships, *closely*, that the anime series has established.

Sure, if you feel two characters from an entire roster can work together, more power to you. But even more power to Raven for speaking her mind, don't you think? Those who find flaws in certain couplings (like our topic three) should voice their craniums, otherwise we wouldn't have a versatile community.

by Yuri-hime Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:42 pm

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:
Yuri-hime wrote:Does it really matter? The case could be made that Shizuru and Natsuki shouldn't be together because of 'what Shizuru did to Natsuki', and that Natsuki 'doesn't love Shizuru the way Shizuru loves her'. The same case can be made against Haruka/Yukino, and the biggest point against this pairing is Haruka is straight.

This reasoning holds true for any fandom pairing. Many of the pairings people ship would have absolutely no possibility canonically. But we as pairing-lovers don't care. If the two characters you love can somehow be written well, and be put into a situation where a relationship can actually be made to work, then isn't that what's truly important? I for one could never see Tomoe with Shizuru, but if someone shipped that pairing and could actually make it work somehow, I'm not going to begrudge them. To each their own.

Raven is trying to say that when it comes to fanon pairings, a lot of fans will be subjective. She is aware of this, she just wants fans to own up to it and try not to force it down people throats. Specifically, the people who follow the canon relationships, *closely*, that the anime series has established.

Sure, if you feel two characters from an entire roster can work together, more power to you. But even more power to Raven for speaking her mind, don't you think? Those who find flaws in certain couplings (like our topic three) should voice their craniums, otherwise we wouldn't have a versatile community.

I don't see anyone trying to force 'anything' down other people's throats. The only pairing in Mai Hime that is essentially 'canon' is MaiTate. Everything else is 'crack'. People enjoy writing fanfiction, and drawing fanart for the pairings and characters they love. If simply doing that is 'shoving down people's throat', then no one would write/art anything. We're all just enjoying the pairings we love.

And no one said Raven couldn't speak her mind. But conversely, be expected to get people like Blackfang and I who disagree. No power to us for having differing opinions?

by **Luu Sky Sapphire** Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:16 pm

Yuri-hime wrote:I don't see anyone trying to force 'anything' down other people's throats. The only pairing in Mai Hime that is essentially 'canon' is MaiTate. Everything else is 'crack'. People enjoy writing fanfiction, and drawing fanart for the pairings and characters they love. If simply doing that is 'shoving down people's throat', then no one would write/art anything. We're all just enjoying the pairings we love.

MaiTate isn't really canon until the conclusion of the Mai-HiME, and even then, fans can argue that it went nowhere because of the events in Kuro no Mai. What about Akira Okuzaki and Takumi Tokiha? They had more chemistry and time together, but I digress.

Going back to your statement of Haruka being straight. How did you possibly come to this conclusion? I'm guessing you're talking about the anime series here. Haruka, as far as I know, never showed sexual or even the slight interest in the opposite gender. Heck, even the female gender. The girl is more passionate about her job than romance, unaware of the strong feelings Yukino has for her.

Ask yourself this: Aside from making Mai-Otome more yuri based entertainment, why do you think Sunrise made ShizNat and HaruKino canon from the start?

Yuri-hime wrote:And no one said Raven couldn't speak her mind. But conversely, be expected to get people like Blackfang and I who disagree. No power to us for having differing opinions?

Clearly, I have given power to any fan who has an opinion of an sorts. In my eyes, Raven deserves a bit more credit for voicing against the majority. When you see it that way, you'll respect the topic thread better. You'll get a more detailed explanation in due time.

by MidnightPersona Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:57 pm

Yuri-hime wrote:Does it really matter? The case could be made that Shizuru and Natsuki shouldn't be together because of 'what Shizuru did to Natsuki', and that Natsuki 'doesn't love Shizuru the way Shizuru loves her'. The same case can be made against Haruka/Yukino, and the biggest point against this pairing is Haruka is straight.

This reasoning holds true for any fandom pairing. Many of the pairings people ship would have absolutely no possibility canonically. But we as pairing-lovers don't care. If the two characters you love can somehow be written well, and be put into a situation where a relationship can actually be made to work, then isn't that what's truly important? I for one could never see Tomoe with Shizuru, but if someone shipped that pairing and could actually make it work somehow, I'm not going to begrudge them. To each their own.

Let me try and make this clear. I have stated before, and I will again, I have nothing against 'crack'. This thread was merely made due to the fact I, as a fan, am tired of people misinterpreting things in the canon as sexual when it isn't or defenses for the crack. Also, saying Haruka is straight is just as silly as saying the same for Nao and, to a degree, Natsuki. Haruka, as Luu said, seems more in love with her job than anything else, but when does she blush? When does she show more than a simple 'meh' to another person? She has anger toward her rival, Shizuru, and frustration for most everyone, but it's Yukino Kikukawa who can say and do things that Haruka does not care for or accept from anyone else. Shizuru manipulates Haruka, but Yukino just says what it is... except for her feelings. When Haruka 'confronted' Shizuru she was speaking more from anger than anything else. From experiance I can say that anger leads you to say things you honestly don't mean. Yes, sometimes you mean them, but it's not as often as people like to interpret. Also, I know myself that when you fear something you do not understand you reject it. It's part of why I denied my sexuality for the longest time. Fear is a powerful thing and Haruka does have it, she's not fearless when facing Shizuru, she's courageous. Courage is having fear, but doing it anyways. Also, when Diana was killed what was on Haruka's mind? It wasn't the 'bubuzuke woman' or the school, or her job. It was who? Yu-Ki-No. Nothing is more important to Haruka that Miss. Kikukawa, but Haruka doesn't like to show it. Yes, Haruka is stubborn as an ox but I'll be damned if anyone can say that that woman wouldn't do anything for Yukino. It would take Haruka time to accept herself and it would take Yukino stepping up, but they would have a nice relationship. Haruka has the capacity to look past what 'should be' and the 'norm' to do what she feels is right. If she didn't, she'd be a traditional Japanese woman who allowed herself to be subservient to men and anyone in power but instead she takes charge and goes against the norm in everything else. Haruka isn't the kind of girl to really care about gender--I've said similar things in anger--she just wanted to hurt Shizuru and rile her because Haruka herself felt hurt and betrayed by Shizuru. Other than Yukino, Shizuru and Reito are probably her closet friends. Haruka would love Yukino the same way she always have: With her entire heart. It would be about love, not gender. And we can see at the end of the series Haruka and Shizuru are fine once more. Haruka, in the end, accepts Shizuru which in turn leads to self-acceptance.

Natsuki and Shizuru are also clearly canon. Though some people can argue that Natsuki isn't a lesbian due to her 'rejection' of Shizuru. Honestly? It can be taken as either a rejection or a 'give me time to see'. As the end of HiME made clear, Natsuki and Shizuru still have 'moments' and it's very clear, to me at least, Natsuki is in love with Shizuru, but being similar to Nao and Haruka in the sense she was never looking or caring about love... yeah. Natsuki tried to protect Shizuru from all the events in the Orphan arc by giving her information on a need-to-know basis. Also, she had to discover for herself that Shizuru has been there for her even when she didn't have to be. Yes, Shizuru fucked up at a few key points, but Natsuki can accept and see past those flaws to accept her inner love. How deep that love runs is shown as the series ends because, though Natsuki is shy/nervous she does not reject Shizuru's obviously direct advances. Natsuki is, honestly, closer to rejecting Shizuru than Haruka of rejecting Yukino and I honestly see neither happening. Love is love, regardless of who and why and the worst thing you can do is try to deny yourself for what you or anyone else percieves as 'right.'

Also, again, the pairings I mentioned are do to seeing them overused/overdone as I can see SHizNat being overused/overdone and merely saying that canon does not support it. You act as if I have never accepted crack when I have both wrote it i.e. MaiHo and read it i.e. NatNao, ShizHo, etc. I am merely stating that I am denouncing some of the 'defenses' people use to try and force people to accept NatNao and the like as canon when those defenses, as stated in my first post, are completely illogical due to canon. If they want crack, that's fine, I just prefer to have crack be seen as what it is: Crack.

Yuri-hime wrote:
Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:Raven is trying to say that when it comes to fanon pairings, a lot of fans will be subjective. She is aware of this, she just wants fans to own up to it and try not to force it down people throats. Specifically, the people who follow the canon relationships, *closely*, that the anime series has established.

Sure, if you feel two characters from an entire roster can work together, more power to you. But even more power to Raven for speaking her mind, don't you think? Those who find flaws in certain couplings (like our topic three) should voice their craniums, otherwise we wouldn't have a versatile community.
I don't see anyone trying to force 'anything' down other people's throats. The only pairing in Mai Hime that is essentially 'canon' is MaiTate. Everything else is 'crack'. People enjoy writing fanfiction, and drawing fanart for the pairings and characters they love. If simply doing that is 'shoving down people's throat', then no one would write/art anything. We're all just enjoying the pairings we love.

And no one said Raven couldn't speak her mind. But conversely, be expected to get people like Blackfang and I who disagree. No power to us for having differing opinions?

Just because you do not see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Also, perception is a bitch. Also, MaiTate isn't even completely canon. They were not officially together at the end of the series and could be looked upon as 'could go either way' and there is canon evidence Mai could go other ways if certain other characters grow up or things change in some ways. I, for one, like the MaiTate canon, but my favorite crack is MaiHo because it can make sense canon wise, given the right initiative, but it's still crack. You need to stop being overly defensive and trying to make this thread into something it is not..

by **she-ga-roo** Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:02 am

well... i just say my opinions here:

1) nat/nao:
i can't see them as as a couple either. because it's kind of like what luu said once in one of his vids on youtube (i guess it was the two-part vid about the 10 hottest mai-caracters, if i remember correctly, if not i'm sorry ^^; ) : he mostly said something along the lines: nat/nao is kind of love between clones. okay i don't think of nao as natsukis clone, but there are kind alike, like natsuki herself said in the series. and if they would have some type of realtionship, it would be more than rival-friends like haruka and shizuru in mai otome.

2) shiz/nao:
i totally agree, that it's a crack pair. but i don't look at that cause of the sexual part. a good story is for me a good plot, and if it happens that there are sex scenes, than i say nothing about it, if these are well written and not just i-write-this-just-cause-i-want-them-to-have-sex. personally i think that it would be really interesting to see how exactly it would happen if these two would end up together, cause lets face it: with shizurus love for natsuki (and the fact that she killed nao's mother which defently isn't a plus for her in nao's book) a storyline which would lead to shizuru ending up with nao of all people would be really interesting to follow.

3) shiz/nat/nao:
well, it just happened that i've read a storyline of 3 fanfictions with that as plot. at first the writer didn't gave away at first that it would end up like this. but it was well written in my eyes, so i don't say anything against it.

by MidnightPersona Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:51 pm

she-ga-roo wrote:well... i just say my opinions here:

1) nat/nao:
i can't see them as as a couple either. because it's kind of like what luu said once in one of his vids on youtube (i guess it was the two-part vid about the 10 hottest mai-caracters, if i remember correctly, if not i'm sorry ^^; ) : he mostly said something along the lines: nat/nao is kind of love between clones. okay i don't think of nao as natsukis clone, but there are kind alike, like natsuki herself said in the series. and if they would have some type of realtionship, it would be more than rival-friends like haruka and shizuru in mai otome.

2) shiz/nao:
i totally agree, that it's a crack pair. but i don't look at that cause of the sexual part. a good story is for me a good plot, and if it happens that there are sex scenes, than i say nothing about it, if these are well written and not just i-write-this-just-cause-i-want-them-to-have-sex. personally i think that it would be really interesting to see how exactly it would happen if these two would end up together, cause lets face it: with shizurus love for natsuki (and the fact that she killed nao's mother which defently isn't a plus for her in nao's book) a storyline which would lead to shizuru ending up with nao of all people would be really interesting to follow.

3) shiz/nat/nao:
well, it just happened that i've read a storyline of 3 fanfictions with that as plot. at first the writer didn't gave away at first that it would end up like this. but it was well written in my eyes, so i don't say anything against it.

Nice reply, but I wasn't trying to say crack is not allowed. Yes, good story/plot=anything goes the only thing I want people to see--and it seems no one has a defense for--are why they cannot work canon-wise. I've seen tons of people try and prove NatNao, at the least, canon and I wanna see/hear if those people agree with the original post or not. I honestly do not understand why people are defending crack itself. xD Do you have an opinion on the possibility of these pairs with canon defenses, or is it just crack? I am curious.

by **she-ga-roo** Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:56 am

MidnightPersona wrote:

Nice reply, but I wasn't trying to say crack is not allowed.

i know, i didn't caught it like that from your other posts here. ^^

MidnightPersona wrote:Yes, good story/plot=anything goes the only thing I want people to see--and it seems no one has a defense for--are why they cannot work canon-wise. I've seen tons of people try and prove NatNao, at the least, canon and I wanna see/hear if those people agree with the original post or not. I honestly do not understand why people are defending crack itself. xD Do you have an opinion on the possibility of these pairs with canon defenses, or is it just crack? I am curious.

so canon defenses for the possibility of these pairs (or other pairs)?... hm, well no. maybe i got your question all wrong here, but for me there aren't be any canon defenses. how can you have a canon defence when these pairs aren't even canon? oO or maybe a hint that these pairings could exist later, like shiz/nat. true, in the series it's not clearly said, that natsuki get really in love with shizuru. but the end leaves a wide open in the direction, that she will be later. so i think of them as canon. in a nat/nao case, for example (or even shiz/nao), there is no hint for me. just because of the bickering of these two or the fact that natsuki defended nao i wouldn't say they would end up in a romatic relationship. natsuki is more focused on shizuru.
same thing with haru/kino. i mention them again cause somewhere here was the sentence that it would be crack and haruka is straight. i don't think like that. okay i don't walk around here with a big harukino flag in my hands like i do with shiznat, but i would say harukino is more like a canon paaring in my eyes, too. it's almost like shiznat. well, we have the part (yukino and shizuru) who knows she's in love with the other girl, and the other part (haruka and natsuki) who's mind is just focused on one thing (for haruka the work at school and for natsuki revenge on the first district). and for haruka saying that a love between girls is sick (or something along the lines), infront of shizuru, yukino and natsuki was more like a anger-reaction. like natsuki's cry out and step back, as shizuru tried to touch her after natsuki learned of shizurus true feelings for her. okay her reaction wasn't out of anger and more like surprise/shock, but it was a reaction out of negative emotions and later natsuki accepted shizurus feelings. and personally i think that haruka would do the same in yukinos case.
okay, i think i maybe lost your main question here, so:
i think nat/nao, shiz/nao, shiz/nat/nao are fanmade.

by Amaya Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:45 pm

Ugh, looks like a topic for me...

Okay first of all. I find the whole bondage thing completely weird and off-topic for that post. I mean come on... It's a joke and nothing more. No NatNao-Fan would come up with that as defense, leave alone main defense.

What I don't get is who are the people who talk about these pairings as canon. I mean if we draw such a strict line between canon and fanmade where do we draw it? Doesn't it make it all black and white?Is there even a need to say it's canon? I mean crack is only a word. Where does it start? Is NatNao really the same catagory as for example Akira/Reito which would both be a crack pairing if we break it down to that theory.

To me I really see less potential in HaruKino for Haruka is disgusted over love between women (as she says in the argument with Shizuru) and also ChieAoi is just as far fetched. (And no I don't want to offend anyone or credits for stating that) We have to remember that Mai HiME only shows the depths of Mai's character. From the others we only grab superficial information. Especially Shizuru and Nao don't get a lot of character development due to very low screen time and Natsuki mostly remains silent about her feelings as well. So, all of the pairings are fanmade. If anything you can say that Mai and Tate love each other as well as Akane and Kazuya and Akira and Takumi (let's not mention the breeder nun here). I just don't get the odds against NatNao, ShizNao or ShizNatNao they are fanmade yes, but just as every other pairing than the tree named above. Every argument in that thread can be turned around just as you need it. You can say Haruka said that thing about same gender love out of anger but in reality thinks different but that's a statement you can also break down to Nao's character. So, what't the main point? I mean I have no problem if somebody states their mind, but I think it was also the thing that Raven as the "Resident Harukino Fanwhore" wrote how not canon these pairings are when HaruKino is also just a fanmade thing. To me even Shizuru and Natsuki are fanmade as in my opinion Natsuki rejects Shizuru.

by **Cheshire Kat** Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:57 pm

Amaya wrote:Ugh, looks like a topic for me...

Okay first of all. I find the whole bondage thing completely weird and off-topic for that post. I mean come on... It's a joke and nothing more. No NatNao-Fan would come up with that as defense, leave alone main defense.

What I don't get is who are the people who talk about these pairings as canon. I mean if we draw such a strict line between canon and fanmade where do we draw it? Doesn't it make it all black and white?Is there even a need to say it's canon? I mean crack is only a word. Where does it start? Is NatNao really the same catagory as for example Akira/Reito which would both be a crack pairing if we break it down to that theory.

To me I really see less potential in HaruKino for Haruka is disgusted over love between women (as she says in the argument with Shizuru) and also ChieAoi is just as far fetched. (And no I don't want to offend anyone or credits for stating that) We have to remember that Mai HiME only shows the depths of Mai's character. From the others we only grab superficial information. Especially Shizuru and Nao don't get a lot of character development due to very low screen time and Natsuki mostly remains silent about her feelings as well. So, all of the pairings are fanmade. If anything you can say that Mai and Tate love each other as well as Akane and Kazuya and Akira and Takumi (let's not mention the breeder nun here). I just don't get the odds against NatNao, ShizNao or ShizNatNao they are fanmade yes, but just as every other pairing than the tree named above. Every argument in that thread can be turned around just as you need it. You can say Haruka said that thing about same gender love out of anger but in reality thinks different but that's a statement you can also break down to Nao's character. So, what't the main point? I mean I have no problem if somebody states their mind, but I think it was also the thing that Raven as the "Resident Harukino Fanwhore" wrote how not canon these pairings are when HaruKino is also just a fanmade thing. To me even Shizuru and Natsuki are fanmade as in my opinion Natsuki rejects Shizuru.

I'm going to have to stop you at those points, Amaya. ChieAoi is probably the most canon pairing in the whole series. Even more-so than ShizNat and MaiTate.

Also, I think that the series began to focus even more on Natsuki than Mai when Natsuki was introduced as a lead character. You don't hear anything about what happened to Mai's father, but you hear everything and the kitchen sink about Natsuki.

by **she-ga-roo** Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:10 pm

Cheshire Kat wrote:

I'm going to have to stop you at those points, Amaya. ChieAoi is probably the most canon pairing in the whole series. Even more-so than ShizNat and MaiTate.

Also, I think that the series began to focus even more on Natsuki than Mai when Natsuki was introduced as a lead character. You don't hear anything about what happened to Mai's father, but you hear everything and the kitchen sink about Natsuki.

but that both isn't the topic of this discussion...

by **Cheshire Kat** Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:13 pm

she-ga-roo wrote:
Cheshire Kat wrote:

I'm going to have to stop you at those points, Amaya. ChieAoi is probably the most canon pairing in the whole series. Even more-so than ShizNat and MaiTate.

Also, I think that the series began to focus even more on Natsuki than Mai when Natsuki was introduced as a lead character. You don't hear anything about what happened to Mai's father, but you hear everything and the kitchen sink about Natsuki.

but that both isn't the topic of this discussion...

I know it isn't, but I was voicing my opinion about those two points of her argument. I'm allowed to do that, aren't I? o.o

by MidnightPersona Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:21 pm

Cheshire Kat wrote:
she-ga-roo wrote:
Cheshire Kat wrote:

I'm going to have to stop you at those points, Amaya. ChieAoi is probably the most canon pairing in the whole series. Even more-so than ShizNat and MaiTate.

Also, I think that the series began to focus even more on Natsuki than Mai when Natsuki was introduced as a lead character. You don't hear anything about what happened to Mai's father, but you hear everything and the kitchen sink about Natsuki.

but that both isn't the topic of this discussion...

I know it isn't, but I was voicing my opinion about those two points of her argument. I'm allowed to do that, aren't I? o.o

Yes, Kat. But I think She-ga-roo was trying to get across that the entire subject needs to go back to the original, but I do appritiate your imput. When threads go off topic it's best to answer what we can (even if it's been answered before) and then drop it. Regardless, I do want to know your opinion on the entire NatNao and such I mentioned in post 1, Kat. I want more detail on your opinion and I'll reply here again in a bit, I'm getting ready for a few things. ^^;

HUGS to you both for going the extra mile in trying to understand and defend points. Also, I haven't forgot your posts she-ga-roo but I wanna give them attention and I am distracted atm. Sorry xD

by **Twisted Eternal Wolvetta** Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:39 pm

WARNING; Defensive of "canon pairings" over to the stage of wanting to rip a persons throat out? Well, avoid my post, since I'm being VERY blunt here.

I couldn't help but find this rather ridiculous, all of this fighting amongst one another - anyhow, I'll put down something, considering I can't resist.

First people are banshee howling about ShizTom, and now this? Sure, I wrote NaoNatsu (in no way would Kuga/Kruger even be dominant here) but there are some very important facts which make them extremely unlikely to get together, considering that they are constantly at one another's throats, and not in the sexual way, mind you. Even in crack, they are going to be a pairing which is more difficult to conquer than one such as... let's put this random – NaoShiho. Manshiro gets more action on Viola than the whole of one sided ShizNatsu in the HiME-manga.

NaoNatsu; anguish, torment, annoyance, pestering.
Yuuki - As far as I could understand when I watched HiME for the few times which I ever have done, Yuuki is merely far too busy working to get money for her mother. (Remember she is simply tricking men into getting money from them, nothing else, nothing sexual). She has the line of innocence and immaturity which brings out her obvious inexperience to the field of communication and combat. The bondage point - perhaps one day she would gain some type of fetish for such an activity, however, she merely uses this skill in order to capture the runt of a pack for the alpha to barge in and tear it away from her clutches. Target the weakest -> gain access to the powerhouse. e,g; if you were to target Takumi, Akira would come charging in, just alike to how Manshiro would for Arika, Nina, Erstin, etc.

Kuga - innocence, awkwardness concerning social situations. Kuga and Yuuki are natural enemies. Aye, hatred can turn into love, but with some people this is merely impossible, especially with the events of the HiME carnival. Would you seriously just by random strut into a room towards Natsuki who you hate with a passion and abruptly propose your love for her whom is your worst enemy? No.

Yuuki – asexual.
Kuga – pansexual. (Remember that both Kuga and Kruger detest sexual harrassment. They hate Takeda never getting the fact that she doesn't like him, however, Kuga's first canon friend was literally Fujino, so that was a background point where she "didn't mind as much" to Fujino's constant teasing. However, in Otome, Kruger hated Viola for their first contact being that of sexual harrassment).
Fujino – raging lesbian.
Mai – pansexual (there are plenty of hints throughout the whole series portraying MaiNatsu with ease).

Remember, we can't understand many of the characters because most never got near enough attention to take a guess on their sexuality.

Suzushiro? Perhaps bi, maybe lesbian, hell, maybe even pansexual. But again, there wasn't enough attention directed to her to even lead to a physical clue into what her feelings are for the sexes.

---

What in the hell is it with the HaruKino and ChieAoi apparently not existing all of a sudden? LOL.

Yukino: Haruka dear!
Haruka: Don't call me dear in public, Yukino!

The main reason I watch HiME these days is because of the HaruKino. I cannot stand ShizNatsu whatsoever. Remember this; in the HiME anime Kuga and Fujino weren't even together. So by HiME, they aren't actually canon, and also, remember this; there was the extra for Kuga and Fujino's future saying it got better for the both of them, but this doesn't mean that they were in an ultimate romantic connection. (Kuga has an understanding to Fujino, but by hell, when spazzy Fujino clings to Kuga, I can't help but find the awkward expression upon Kuga's features also holding the trace of annoyance as well). We cannot say for sure what the HiME Movie with Arika was on about because Sunrise never even released anything else on about it. Merely the "eye-candy" of an apparent injured Fujino with a concerned Kuga.

A lot of you say you understand characters so well, and yet you are missing the point – you are here, avoiding Midnight's comment which is merely her belief into a pairing, she has given out many strong pointers here and yet you are getting so defensive over such a topic.

I hate the characters which are Shizuru and Natsuki, and so I avoid them, I've merely commented my options in certain topics because I am attempting to bring in a light here, just like now, and how Midnight is doing right at this moment; I voiced my own options about Tomoe's characteristics and that she is so misunderstood, and yet for this, I got a load of nonsense. LOL. You try having your favourite character of the series evidently being ruined by Sunrise, considering the translation I made of Tomoe “spazzing” over Shizuru for Mao was rather... distasteful. Sure, the fans of the minor characters are plunged right to the bottom of the bag and crushed daily, especially by Trollrise, and yet still people are obsessing over two characters and missing the whole point of the series which teaches you about love (straight, bi, lesbian, transgender (Akira/Manshiro), pansexual, asexual), determination, dedication, the risks of mental disorder (borderline personality disorder) and development throughout life from childhood and through the gateway to adulthood. (When Mashiro and Nagi go through Valhalla, I see this as not only the future development of Earl, but also the development of these characters from these aspects – to train in Valhalla, to become a better person during the Twilight of the Gods/End of the World, etc).

Take Sailor Moon and Utena for instance, they teach you about the same factors, but these two were far more unique due to being the main supports of the yuri/shoujoai universe. Without these two series along with Rose of Versailles, you wouldn't have your ShizNatsu.

However, I do go entirely on Midnight's option here for yuri characters being official in Otome;

Canon;
ShizNatsu.
HaruKino.
ChieAoi (they are out DATING and catch ZHANG being... well, Zhang).

However there are also these points;

Subtext;
NaoNi (during more than one scene, Nina has blushed in response to Nao and other such things, although her reaction to Nao's “death” during Zwei was ridiculous, considering she never even thought upon her afterwards, Sunrise trolling there again looks like it).

TateMai cannot be classed as even hinted even since Mai said so herself that there was nothing between them when she had run off to think during Garderobe! Wouldn't you want to stay out of the way from peers whilst deciding your future in under a few hours? It is either you become an Otome for your brother, which, Mai knew Takumi wouldn't really need since he already has Akira, or become the Otome for a complete stranger. I'd be walking around just like her.

One-sided;
ShizTom
etc.

But back to the point, aye, NaoNatsu can happen if the plot is twisted a few times, although this would be beating their characteristics around all over the place, just alike to that of faintly twisting Mai Otome to get a pairing such as MaiTom. (Because truthfully? Crack isn't as “insane” as people think, it is rather enjoyable actually, and by a hell an amazingly nice change instead of seeing the same thing over and over and over and over and over. See my point here? Oh, a repeating word).

In my own option, I believe Nao and Natsuki are better suited as sisters/cousins, etc. Just alike to Mai and Mikoto. I do adore crack, but there are just some characters which I don't bring together (at least my modern self, anyhow).

Akira Okuzaki

I remember the time when Yuuki came up to me asking about us dating, of course I refused though. I swear I heard something about her muttering under her breath about a woman and money though. ¬_¬

Pfft, my post is all over the place, from on topic to other replies.

But just as Hrist said in Valkyrie Profile. Avoided characters of the Mai Series: "Where is my leading role?!"

I wonder what the Mai Series would be like if the fans were just like the Touhou Project ones where characters are studied entirely along with people not giving a damn if a character never met the other and paired them together with a storyline to make them fandom-canon?

by **SpiralDasher** Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:48 pm

I agree that these pairings are non-canon and I too do not like them. (I also do not like Haruka/Shizuru for the same reasons, but this isn't a board about them, so this is just a side note.)

Note: I consider "crack pairings" and "non-canon pairings" to be similar, but different.

I don't understand the appeal of them together, but everyone has different tastes; I've had this discussion with a friend and as crack pairings go, people like them because the characters look hot (either alone or together), and/or the characters have had interaction in the anime that has interested them.

ShizNao boggles my mind. That one I consider crack. It is my rant-worthy-pairing for the Mai Hime fandom. Rage button topic, if you will. Granted not Fox News level, but pretty high up there.

Note 2: I posted this without really reading most of the posts or thoroughly. I'm just giving my general opinion.

by **Luu Sky Sapphire** Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:00 pm

First off, apologies for going off-topic Raven. ;p Just want to get this out of the way...

SpiralDasher wrote:Rage button topic, if you will. Granted not Fox News level, but pretty high up there.

Now that you mention it...

:'3 Similar is as similar does~

---

OT: Wolvy made a lot of good points on the characteristics of the Mai-HiME cast and if they could be involved in a relationship, period.

Take Sailor Moon and Utena for instance, they teach you about the same factors, but these two were far more unique due to being the main supports of the yuri/shoujoai universe. Without these two series along with Rose of Versailles, you wouldn't have your ShizNatsu.

Amen on this one. Obvious, but oh-so true~

Now that I think about it, my opinion stands along with Dash's in terms of people enjoying crack from a visual standpoint. Fans ship them together because they look good, but realistically, *probably* wouldn't work by Sunrise's rules. The mind of a fanfiction author? That's another story and more than welcome. o.o

by Amaya Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:19 am

For sticking to the topic I might as well argue with the main facts that were named:

MidnightPersona wrote:

The main defense I see and why it is null-n-void: Bondage (Mostly NatNao).

Spiders. They do not 'like' bondage. They spin webs to capture their prey. Also, when they catch 'smaller' prey they sometimes allow it to live in their web to catch bigger prey. The spider wants food, and it get's it. This is not bondage.

I myself DO enjoy BDSM and the concept of bondage... which is why I find ANGER with NatNao (or ShizNatNao) fans who say 'ohh~ bondage~' when they see Natsuki 'bound' by Nao.

I've already stated this not being a main defense on the NatNao pairing. It is what it is: a joke. I don't know to whom you are referring but I don't know one NatNao fan who would come up with that as a defense of the pairing.

MidnightPersona wrote:
1.) Nao is NOT being sexual.
Nao captures Natsuki for REVENGE. She wants Natsuki to, not only lose her eye, but also to SUFFER. Not in a kink way, not cuz Nao LOVES to give and receive pain (Sadomasocist). Nao is physically dramatized by her loss of an eye. It hurts her everyday and NOT in a good way. Nao sees Natsuki as the cause of this, most-likely because Natsuki was the one who 'attacked' her and falsely accused her of something she did not do. Nao get's ENJOYMENT from the thought of maiming and killing Natsuki, not sexing her.

In fact Natsuki is the cause of Nao's injured eye and Nao wants to take revenge. That's the obvious facts we get to see. Everything else is interpretation. The way how one perceive certain scenes and interaction is also based on one's own views.

MidnightPersona wrote:
2.) Prey to catch bigger prey: Why Shizuru
Now, after Shizuru rescues Natsuki she makes a mistake: She did not kill the Child. So now the spider is after vengeance. Now, she works to 'capture' the smaller prey again i.e. Natsuki to use against the 'bigger prey' i.e. Shizuru. She is, again, not keeping Natsuki bound for any type of sexual please nor to get Shizuru and give her sexual pleasure. It is to kill, destroy, make them suffer, and get revenge. Nothing about Natsuki being bound or anything that happens between the 3 characters is sexual. The only 'sexual' parts for ShizNat are during scenes with no Nao and the only other 'pair' to notice it in person before the end of the series is HaruKino. Nao technically sees Shizuru's devotion for Natsuki, but she's to focused on revenge to care about anything but using it to her advantage.

Nao knows about Shizuru being in love with Natsuki, which is very obvious in the cliff scene. There have been rumors going on and Nao's comment also could lead to the impression that she is not comfortable with same gender love or love and affection in general. As a fan of NatNao I can honestly say that I never think there was kind of sexual tension between them in HiME if anything it has to grow in the future but who knows. Otome is a different story. I think there's another chemestry between those two but I want to stick to HiME here. And if we watch the HiME special on the beach, I can only say that Natsuki at least wants to look cool in front of Nao (who's more concerned in planning revenge on Shizuru). But since Sunrise also made HiME into a lovey-dovey anime where everything's fine at the end it is hard to tell what of the characters is real. To me it often seems they didn't think a lot about the interactions and just used them as they needed them. Everyone's fine in the end so also Nao suddenly losened up. The last episode was always the odd of the series. Nao uses people as she pleases to her advantage. Okay. So does Shizuru. Natsuki is only different because she relies on herself. In fact all of those three are only relying on themselves. Only Natsuki's character develops and opens up through the storyline. From Shizuru and Nao we mainly get the crazy side and now one can argue if it was because of the Obsidian Lord or if it's their nature.

MidnightPersona wrote:
3.) But what about BEFORE Yukariko set's Nao up!?! THE CAKE WARS!
Alright, I can admit I can see slightly where you may think there is 'sexual tension' between Nao and Natsuki... but honestly? That's NOT Natsuki. Even if Nao was, which honestly? The girl is too self-centered and focused on her 'plans' to give two fucks about dating anyone, Natsuki isn't the type to fight with/threaten someone she cares about and she more sees Nao as someone she only dealt with when she HAD to. Also, Shizuru wouldn't have sat idly by if she thought Natsuki was at ALL interested in Nao. In fact, I do think Shizuru woulda done a lot more sooner if that was the case. For example, I can be a flirt and see it as fine as long as it isn't srs bsns but if I saw my girlfriend flirting with someone and either party was being serious I wouldn't promise that the second party would enjoy my wrath. So, honestly, if they were 'flirting' that's where it ends, because Shizuru would be able to tell the difference and I assure you her eyes were on Natsuki the ENTIRE TIME.

First of all chemestry/potential and sexual tension are two differnet things. The cake wars is an episode of Mai HiME and therefore the things shown it also has to be considered as part of their characters. Again one could argue if Sunrise just used the characters as they pleased to make the fun episode. Maybe yes, maybe no. We'll never know for sure. Matter of interpretation again. The same goes for the Karaoke Episode. To me Nao is starting to slowly socialise and we'll never knew how things would have turned out if the carnival didn't start.
For Shizuru always having her eyes on Natsuki...That's what we think and expect of her, but do we really know for sure how much she knows about Natsuki? We don't even know how close they were as Sunrise doesn't go into detail.
The word flirting is something I rarly see in Mai HiME at all. Reito is flirting with Mai from time to time and Shizuru is being polite flirt with some people but for other characters to use the term flirting would be too much. Natsuki doesn't even know what it is and Nao uses it purely to lure in her male prey. For Shizuru stepping in...I am not sure how she would handle things. She does know of Takeda's feeling towards Natsuki but doesn't step in. Maybe she really only wanted to watch her from afar until the carnival let her snap.

MidnightPersona wrote:
Conclusion: NatNao, ShizNatNao, and ShizNao are fan-made pairings that make the least sense, to me, in the series. All the 'defenses' for them can be easily shot down and most 'fans' of the pairing make-up new/altered personality for the three characters so, really, it isn't even the canon characters anymore but fan-made versions whom, in my opinion, are far weaker and very mary sue like. Therefore, I am not into srs bsns NatNao/ShizNatNao/ShizNao.

I agree that the potential during the HiME goes against zero but still certain things develop during the episodes that could lead the way into a differnt future and that's exactly where fanfiction starts. Of course characters are being modeled because we only get a glimpse of the girls after they won the battle. Who knows how Nao will changed after her mother is back again. Manhunting is clearly over...Everything must be different after losing such powers and seeing them sitting all together at the end leaves us in the dark if the personalities changed too. I must say I've never read a fanfic that deals with NatNao,ShizNatNao or ShizNao during the Mai HiME Battle because even tome that is complete nonsense but for what could happen afterwards there are countless possibilities. My personal experience had shown me more than once that even the strangest relationships can happen under the right circumstances and with these circumstances Sunrise left us in the dark. So it's up the the fans to imagine how things go on.

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Re: NatNao, ShizNatNao, ShizNao... why it really doesn't make sense.

Re: NatNao, ShizNatNao, ShizNao... why it really doesn't make sense.

Re: NatNao, ShizNatNao, ShizNao... why it really doesn't make sense.

Re: NatNao, ShizNatNao, ShizNao... why it really doesn't make sense.

Re: NatNao, ShizNatNao, ShizNao... why it really doesn't make sense.

Re: NatNao, ShizNatNao, ShizNao... why it really doesn't make sense.

Re: NatNao, ShizNatNao, ShizNao... why it really doesn't make sense.

Re: NatNao, ShizNatNao, ShizNao... why it really doesn't make sense.

Re: NatNao, ShizNatNao, ShizNao... why it really doesn't make sense.

Re: NatNao, ShizNatNao, ShizNao... why it really doesn't make sense.

Re: NatNao, ShizNatNao, ShizNao... why it really doesn't make sense.

Re: NatNao, ShizNatNao, ShizNao... why it really doesn't make sense.

Re: NatNao, ShizNatNao, ShizNao... why it really doesn't make sense.

Re: NatNao, ShizNatNao, ShizNao... why it really doesn't make sense.

Re: NatNao, ShizNatNao, ShizNao... why it really doesn't make sense.

Re: NatNao, ShizNatNao, ShizNao... why it really doesn't make sense.