Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:Shizuru would definitely speak up about what she wants in a relationship as she craves affection time once she settled in enough with her partner. Remember episode 26's ending?



That's a wee example. Now that the cloud have lifted, she can express herself about Natsuki better~ This is what she wants!

I love that scene! And that concept! X3

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:

SpiralDasher wrote:Youko look really happy for them. o-o -rewatches the ending scene- Yep, Youko's REALLY happy for them. ^^ (So this means either Youko's open-minded, and/or is a lesbian/bi herself! >D ... A girl can still hope.)

Shiznat: Youko approved.

<3 Such a hopeful Dashie~ Youko believes in all forms of love, but secretly want the Sugiura that is Midoreh.

XD (OFF-TOPIC...) I don't think you're part of our Facebook group, but I recently uploaded this:



Have you ever seen Youko look so uke before? X'D

SpiralDasher: I'm on your side too! Go Midori/Youko goodness! X3

Luu: They all look so adorable! X3

Saw this topic and got interested!

Wow, you guys went deep into Shizuru's character! If I were to write a dissertation on her based on your analysis I'd easily win a Nobel Prize! I skimmed through it and this is amazing material. I applaud you.

But I want to get on the original topic. Because Shizuru is easy to hate, the obvious target people are going to hate/love from the beginning too! She's not the most hated character, but is the passionately hated one. People don't hate her in the end of the anime, not even in the middle! She's hated the second people realize there's something deeper between her and the most popular fantasy inducing main character ( in this case, Natsuki)! And that's pretty much when all you see of her is your regular Anime put together gracefull student council president, so it could have been anyone. It would just look really childish to say " I hate her because she's in the way of Natsuki/ Taketa,Tate,Mai,Nao,Me true love" Picking on Shizuru's rampage is just an excuse, nobody in MaiHiME is remotely innocent.

People hate her the same way we cringed when we saw Takeda and Natsuki in awkward situations that in shounen anime always lead to tsundere romance. But as things progressed we saw he wasn't really a threat. Shizuru on the other hand is a constant, people don't like anyone who comes between them and their fantasy, so while we tolerated Takeda because he's comic relief, Shizuru is Natsuki's loved one. And that just triggers irrational hatred if you are pairing Natsuki with someone else.

(Another example if you are a Kannazuki no Miko fan! You need to step out of your box though! Did Souma do anything wrong before he kissed Himeko? Did he even do anything wrong at all?? Had Chikane not existed we'd all like him very much, he's a great guy! Alas, she exists and we all like her better so Souma needs to get his ass shot!)

Shizuru isn't the reason people hate her. Natsuki is. While all the characters get their own share screentime. Mai, Mikoto and Natsuki were supposedly the main ones. Between all of them Natsuki is obviously the one people would fantasize about. So, while Mai was a big character she's not the one selling the anime, the majority of fans want Natsuki, and that's okay because she was designed with that purpose. Because this is such a well rounded anime and with a great plot it hooks people. But the love/hate relationship people build with the characters happens way before they show their flaws. When they do and you end up with Natsuki with Shizuru and that's someone you didn't want... THEN they nitpick about all the stuff Shizuru did and it just fuels their hatred. But Shizuru lover's... you are to blame too! one simple comment like "Natsuki has more chemistry with Nao" will get everyone ready for war and everybody gets defensive.

However, there are more Shizuru lovers than anyone else. That also serves to piss everybody off! I love it, personally! She is so popular she was mentioned TWICE in an official poll for favourite characters / pairings and even with split votes, she still won.

www . my-zhime.net / himerank02 / index . html

And worse people get when they realize Shiznat is first too in both hime and otome.
Besides, Shizuru didn't do anything wrong anywhere. But people have different morals and view things differently. Still, it's not her personality they hate, had she been with someone else than Natsuki people wouldn't even bother mentioning her.

I thought I would finally reply to this, since I had finally forced myself to do so a few days ago, anyway.

There are many reasons why Shizuru, Fujino, Viola, etc, is hated so much, I, one of them can understand utterly with this.

[Note that this is coming from myself who dislikes softening my answers and honesty, so if you get very defensive I'd avoid this]

- Perfection mary sue.

- Constantly in the spotlight when she isn't even a damned main character, merely just... there. Note - HiME Manga, barely appears (Tomoe in the Otome-Manga has around the same screentime yet gets nothing expect hatred when she isn't even "evil" in the Manga), Otome Manga, appears a few times, Otome Anime, appears a few times, HiME Anime, appears a few times.

Why should she get more attention than Tokiha, Yumemiya, Kuga, Wáng? And no, don't go the yuri route on me with this because the yuri shouldn't even be the most important baseline for this series (and this comes from a yuri fanatic). What about other characters? Where is their attention? Oh, right, it goes to ShizNatsu.

- Corruption (remember the scenes? Surely, I've noticed people here are dodging the fact Viola has cheated on Kruger continuously, this, along with the fact she stabbed Tomoe in the back (and most likely other students) who was merely obsessed with her type of aura-something which she should utterly understand, considering that she went through the exact same problem in not only her younger years as a student, but also as Fujino) – I'm sure she learned all of these “talents” from Anh, that wouldn't be surprising. Notice this?

Anh manipulates - Shizuru manipulates - Tomoe manipulates - Tomoe: firewalled - Tomoe gets the blame (the most displaying type of person shall always get the blame because they are classed as being the "weakest").

Notice this also?

Cat - Silent
Dog - Hyper

The dog shall usually be told off the most whilst the cat shall silently be bitchy. Again, yes, I know fully well cats can be very intimate, but they can be manipulative, they kill birds for the sake of it, play with the food which they aren't going to eat.

- The hair; some people actually get annoyed with her hair which sparks this dislike, this is one of the small things which got me annoyed with her at first.

- Going on a rampage and attempting to murder Yuuki more than necessary.

- It is impossible to understand Fujino and Viola entirely, they merely have far too many masks and this causes them to become clouded in FanFiction (even I myself have created my own version of Viola for Seductive Smile, since I've had enough of the constant wave of her going all batshit all over the place).

- The fact she girlishly poses and says "Soooorry! I didn't meeeean to!" and then automatically gets away with everything. A spoiled little brat if you ask me. And yet Tomoe didn't get even a glance if she was to attempt to say sorry, she would be locked away, unlike the ever perfect "epitome".

- Now, I don't believe she actually raped Kuga (since Kuga is so over reactive when it comes to these things, not entire rape, but perhaps feeling up), however, I do believe she would have murdered the innocents which worked in District One/First District.

- Acting utterly goodie goodie and then abruptly entering the scene when it is almost over to take all the credit, doesn't exist? ~ She does barely no work, making Suzushiro do everything and then takes all of this work and forms it into her own credit, making Haruka the second in line at all times (it also happened in Otome, Armitage was the No.2 Pearl on the artwork of their class). I don't blame Haruka for her annoyance over Shizuru whatsoever.

- Taking advantage over Kikukawa and Suzushiro during the Carnival, knowing fully well they wouldn't stand a chance for merely standing up to her. See? This is one of the main points which I'm coming along with here, she seeks out weakness, muddles with it, manipulates it, breaks it, and then forms it into something else to watch in amusement as that person experiences pain. E,g; she gets an ego boost watching the students of Garderobe fight over her for her attention.

Characters who she took advantage of physically and mentally;
Fujino - Kikukawa/Suzushiro/Yuuki/Kuga
Viola - Marguerite/unknown students.

- She shows signs of obvious paedophilia; Yumemiya, Ribbon-chan. And no, again, do not go along the lines of: ohh, she was attempting to gain Kruger's attention.

A role model? A person to be alike to? Um, no.

A few months ago I was actually alright with both Shizuru and Natsuki to only just bear with them enough, however, recently, this has spiralled out of control. I won't tell of the reasons, but many of these points merely fueled my annoyance over their constant involvement of being the mains. Some fans want something different, a few of us are moving onto "crack" and in return getting reviews such as "what a weird couple, how strange, eww, this isn't 'canon'". Either that, or they are relating it to ShizNatsu saying it isn't a pairing they'd usually go for.

And yet, whether people like it or not, I'm simply going to continue on with fighting for the characters who never get attention along with the events of the series. So many plotlines, ideas and original development is being lost by the sheer wave of ShizNatsu which never backs down. What about Monica? What about the Dragon King War? What about Fumi and Mashiro, the most important HiME?

Am I over reacting? No, I don't think so - it is about time somebody pointed these things out before the only thing we see is ShizNatsu killing off every single character in stories along with them not being entirely in character.

Shizuru is merely a gigantic oxymoron.

And yes, I've stopped writing ShizNatsu, all of them involving this couple are now on hold for as long as my intense annoyance to them continues.

CaptainVonCookie wrote:Saw this topic and got interested!

Wow, you guys went deep into Shizuru's character! If I were to write a dissertation on her based on your analysis I'd easily win a Nobel Prize! I skimmed through it and this is amazing material. I applaud you.

But I want to get on the original topic. Because Shizuru is easy to hate, the obvious target people are going to hate/love from the beginning too! She's not the most hated character, but is the passionately hated one. People don't hate her in the end of the anime, not even in the middle! She's hated the second people realize there's something deeper between her and the most popular fantasy inducing main character ( in this case, Natsuki)! And that's pretty much when all you see of her is your regular Anime put together gracefull student council president, so it could have been anyone. It would just look really childish to say " I hate her because she's in the way of Natsuki/ Taketa,Tate,Mai,Nao,Me true love" Picking on Shizuru's rampage is just an excuse, nobody in MaiHiME is remotely innocent.

People hate her the same way we cringed when we saw Takeda and Natsuki in awkward situations that in shounen anime always lead to tsundere romance. But as things progressed we saw he wasn't really a threat. Shizuru on the other hand is a constant, people don't like anyone who comes between them and their fantasy, so while we tolerated Takeda because he's comic relief, Shizuru is Natsuki's loved one. And that just triggers irrational hatred if you are pairing Natsuki with someone else.

(Another example if you are a Kannazuki no Miko fan! You need to step out of your box though! Did Souma do anything wrong before he kissed Himeko? Did he even do anything wrong at all?? Had Chikane not existed we'd all like him very much, he's a great guy! Alas, she exists and we all like her better so Souma needs to get his ass shot!)

Shizuru isn't the reason people hate her. Natsuki is. While all the characters get their own share screentime. Mai, Mikoto and Natsuki were supposedly the main ones. Between all of them Natsuki is obviously the one people would fantasize about. So, while Mai was a big character she's not the one selling the anime, the majority of fans want Natsuki, and that's okay because she was designed with that purpose. Because this is such a well rounded anime and with a great plot it hooks people. But the love/hate relationship people build with the characters happens way before they show their flaws. When they do and you end up with Natsuki with Shizuru and that's someone you didn't want... THEN they nitpick about all the stuff Shizuru did and it just fuels their hatred. But Shizuru lover's... you are to blame too! one simple comment like "Natsuki has more chemistry with Nao" will get everyone ready for war and everybody gets defensive.

However, there are more Shizuru lovers than anyone else. That also serves to piss everybody off! I love it, personally! She is so popular she was mentioned TWICE in an official poll for favourite characters / pairings and even with split votes, she still won.

www . my-zhime.net / himerank02 / index . html

And worse people get when they realize Shiznat is first too in both hime and otome.
Besides, Shizuru didn't do anything wrong anywhere. But people have different morals and view things differently. Still, it's not her personality they hate, had she been with someone else than Natsuki people wouldn't even bother mentioning her.

Wow! These are all really great points! I especially liked your comparison to KnM and Souma. =]

Your points are very true. It's very easy to hate good people or characters simply because they get in the way of something you want. I've been one of those people (who hated a really great character), and I know from experience: Once you let go of that unnecessary and ridiculous hate, the world is a much better place. =]

Twisted Eternal Wolvetta wrote:I thought I would finally reply to this, since I had finally forced myself to do so a few days ago, anyway.

There are many reasons why Shizuru, Fujino, Viola, etc, is hated so much, I, one of them can understand utterly with this.

[Note that this is coming from myself who dislikes softening my answers and honesty, so if you get very defensive I'd avoid this]

- Perfection mary sue.

- Constantly in the spotlight when she isn't even a damned main character, merely just... there. Note - HiME Manga, barely appears (Tomoe in the Otome-Manga has around the same screentime yet gets nothing expect hatred when she isn't even "evil" in the Manga), Otome Manga, appears a few times, Otome Anime, appears a few times, HiME Anime, appears a few times.

Why should she get more attention than Tokiha, Yumemiya, Kuga, Wáng? And no, don't go the yuri route on me with this because the yuri shouldn't even be the most important baseline for this series (and this comes from a yuri fanatic). What about other characters? Where is their attention? Oh, right, it goes to ShizNatsu.

- Corruption (remember the scenes? Surely, I've noticed people here are dodging the fact Viola has cheated on Kruger continuously, this, along with the fact she stabbed Tomoe in the back (and most likely other students) who was merely obsessed with her type of aura-something which she should utterly understand, considering that she went through the exact same problem in not only her younger years as a student, but also as Fujino) – I'm sure she learned all of these “talents” from Anh, that wouldn't be surprising. Notice this?

Anh manipulates - Shizuru manipulates - Tomoe manipulates - Tomoe: firewalled - Tomoe gets the blame (the most displaying type of person shall always get the blame because they are classed as being the "weakest").

Notice this also?

Cat - Silent
Dog - Hyper

The dog shall usually be told off the most whilst the cat shall silently be bitchy. Again, yes, I know fully well cats can be very intimate, but they can be manipulative, they kill birds for the sake of it, play with the food which they aren't going to eat.

- The hair; some people actually get annoyed with her hair which sparks this dislike, this is one of the small things which got me annoyed with her at first.

- Going on a rampage and attempting to murder Yuuki more than necessary.

- It is impossible to understand Fujino and Viola entirely, they merely have far too many masks and this causes them to become clouded in FanFiction (even I myself have created my own version of Viola for Seductive Smile, since I've had enough of the constant wave of her going all batshit all over the place).

- The fact she girlishly poses and says "Soooorry! I didn't meeeean to!" and then automatically gets away with everything. A spoiled little brat if you ask me. And yet Tomoe didn't get even a glance if she was to attempt to say sorry, she would be locked away, unlike the ever perfect "epitome".

- Now, I don't believe she actually raped Kuga (since Kuga is so over reactive when it comes to these things, not entire rape, but perhaps feeling up), however, I do believe she would have murdered the innocents which worked in District One/First District.

- Acting utterly goodie goodie and then abruptly entering the scene when it is almost over to take all the credit, doesn't exist? ~ She does barely no work, making Suzushiro do everything and then takes all of this work and forms it into her own credit, making Haruka the second in line at all times (it also happened in Otome, Armitage was the No.2 Pearl on the artwork of their class). I don't blame Haruka for her annoyance over Shizuru whatsoever.

- Taking advantage over Kikukawa and Suzushiro during the Carnival, knowing fully well they wouldn't stand a chance for merely standing up to her. See? This is one of the main points which I'm coming along with here, she seeks out weakness, muddles with it, manipulates it, breaks it, and then forms it into something else to watch in amusement as that person experiences pain. E,g; she gets an ego boost watching the students of Garderobe fight over her for her attention.

Characters who she took advantage of physically and mentally;
Fujino - Kikukawa/Suzushiro/Yuuki/Kuga
Viola - Marguerite/unknown students.

- She shows signs of obvious paedophilia; Yumemiya, Ribbon-chan. And no, again, do not go along the lines of: ohh, she was attempting to gain Kruger's attention.

A role model? A person to be alike to? Um, no.

A few months ago I was actually alright with both Shizuru and Natsuki to only just bear with them enough, however, recently, this has spiralled out of control. I won't tell of the reasons, but many of these points merely fueled my annoyance over their constant involvement of being the mains. Some fans want something different, a few of us are moving onto "crack" and in return getting reviews such as "what a weird couple, how strange, eww, this isn't 'canon'". Either that, or they are relating it to ShizNatsu saying it isn't a pairing they'd usually go for.

And yet, whether people like it or not, I'm simply going to continue on with fighting for the characters who never get attention along with the events of the series. So many plotlines, ideas and original development is being lost by the sheer wave of ShizNatsu which never backs down. What about Monica? What about the Dragon King War? What about Fumi and Mashiro, the most important HiME?

Am I over reacting? No, I don't think so - it is about time somebody pointed these things out before the only thing we see is ShizNatsu killing off every single character in stories along with them not being entirely in character.

Shizuru is merely a gigantic oxymoron.

And yes, I've stopped writing ShizNatsu, all of them involving this couple are now on hold for as long as my intense annoyance to them continues.

Very interesting and valid points! I had never thought about it like that before.


CaptainVonCookie and Twisted Eternal Wolvetta: I really enjoyed reading both of your posts! =]

Twisted Eternal Wolvetta: I really liked the parallels you made between Anh, Shizuru, and Tomoe. I think you have a really good point there. I havent' seen Otome in a long time, but I remember easily passing Tomoe off as purely a villain. You and Luu Sky Sapphire really have me interested in Tomoe (who I have no doubt that, since I have now removed the hate-shaded glasses I used to wear, I will really like as a character (like I fell in love with the great character Yuuichi Tate from My-Hime). Perhaps Yuuichi and Tomoe are similar in this sense. Both get a lot of trouble from many Mai-series fans.). After Shizuru's birthday, I will definitely check out the pro-Tomoe threads of MM. =]

A point you made, which really stuck in my mind, was how "Shizuru is merely a gigantic oxymoron." I interpreted your words as something that I identify myself as being: "A cornucopia of conflicting concepts," (Such as: nice but frightening when angry, and: acts nonchalant but is actually paying attention to everything,) but I'd like to know what you meant by that. Would you mind elaborating? =]

MissSoccerNinja wrote:Twisted Eternal Wolvetta: I really liked the parallels you made between Anh, Shizuru, and Tomoe. I think you have a really good point there. I havent' seen Otome in a long time, but I remember easily passing Tomoe off as purely a villain. You and Luu Sky Sapphire really have me interested in Tomoe (who I have no doubt that, since I have now removed the hate-shaded glasses I used to wear, I will really like as a character (like I fell in love with the great character Yuuichi Tate from My-Hime). Perhaps Yuuichi and Tomoe are similar in this sense. Both get a lot of trouble from many Mai-series fans.). After Shizuru's birthday, I will definitely check out the pro-Tomoe threads of MM. =]

A point you made, which really stuck in my mind, was how "Shizuru is merely a gigantic oxymoron." I interpreted your words as something that I identify myself as being: "A cornucopia of conflicting concepts," (Such as: nice but frightening when angry, and: acts nonchalant but is actually paying attention to everything,) but I'd like to know what you meant by that. Would you mind elaborating? =]

Oh? There is no need, Ninja! Basically, you've already explained it by yourself over that I see Shizuru as an oxymoron. After all, we all know that Shizuru is silent usually, however mentally she is boisterous within the mind. She is a bland but at the same time, a deep, twisted and at times, evil character, it is rather confusing at first, but after more thought you can understand where this is coming from!

@Twist: I actually agree with many of the points you've made (not all, but the agree easily out-numbers the not-so-agreeing) and wouldn't mind adding my own points to them. However, it's one in the morning and I don't feel like going into detail at this time. I mean, I could further expand when it's not such an ungodly hour, but you strike me as a person who wouldn't care either way so...

SpiralDasher wrote:@Twist: I actually agree with many of the points you've made (not all, but the agree easily out-numbers the not-so-agreeing) and wouldn't mind adding my own points to them. However, it's one in the morning and I don't feel like going into detail at this time. I mean, I could further expand when it's not such an ungodly hour, but you strike me as a person who wouldn't care either way so...

Oh? Well, I wouldn't mind hearing your points, after all, I am wanting to at least be able to look upon Shizuru and Natsuki without cringing, so learning more might help, though I certainly can't promise that. I'm wanting to be able to read other characters of the series better, though I have always found Shizuru the most awkward since she has all of her masks barring her away from who she truly is.

It makes me wonder where exactly she came from and how she developed these tactics, but again, we have no idea whatsoever, since there are so many characters without proper backstory.

Pfft, Trollrise.

Twisted Eternal Wolvetta wrote:
Oh? There is no need, Ninja! Basically, you've already explained it by yourself over that I see Shizuru as an oxymoron. After all, we all know that Shizuru is silent usually, however mentally she is boisterous within the mind. She is a bland but at the same time, a deep, twisted and at times, evil character, it is rather confusing at first, but after more thought you can understand where this is coming from!

Thank you for explaining! =]

I can definitely see how this would be a reason to dislike Shizuru. You can never really know exactly what she's thinking, and that can be unnerving. =/

I choose to see Shizuru as a person who has a dark side but is really, and wants to be, good, so this is something I don't see as a problem. I definitely see her as somebody you don't want to mess with (such as hurt Natsuki or anybody else she loves) though. I also think that Shizuru's less desirable traits/"imperfections" (the deviatons from her "perfect mask") are what make her a deeper character. =]

Twisted Eternal Wolvetta wrote:Oh? Well, I wouldn't mind hearing your points, after all, I am wanting to at least be able to look upon Shizuru and Natsuki without cringing, so learning more might help, though I certainly can't promise that. I'm wanting to be able to read other characters of the series better, though I have always found Shizuru the most awkward since she has all of her masks barring her away from who she truly is.

It makes me wonder where exactly she came from and how she developed these tactics, but again, we have no idea whatsoever, since there are so many characters without proper backstory.

Pfft, Trollrise.

Agreed, (from a writer's point of view) Shizuru is definitely one of the hardest characters to write. Her mask is why. MidnightPersona, BubuzukeOnna, other MM members and I have discussed this (Shizuru's mask, what we think Shizuru is really like, and how Shizuru could have possibly become the way she is) in a character analysis thread. I could find the thread and PM it to you if you'd think it'd be helpful (I've definitely enjoyed participating in the thread and learning from everybody). If not, that's ok too. =]

For your question ("how she developed these tactics"), a proposed explanation (in a very impressive analysis by BubuzukeOnna) is that she developed her persona partly due to being from upper-class society (among other reasons, but this is one of them).

I would definately love the link to that thread.

MissSoccerNinja wrote:For your question ("how she developed these tactics"), a proposed explanation (in a very impressive analysis by BubuzukeOnna) is that she developed her persona partly due to being from upper-class society (among other reasons, but this is one of them).

And when someone from upper-class society "snaps", you don't see it coming. I had my suspicions that Shizuru may be one of the HiME during my first run, I just didn't think she would bring out the best in what the series had with the Carnival arc and Natsuki Kuga as a character. Boy was I in for a shock. If Shizuru was ever bland to you, it's because she was bland on purpose.

To her credit, her limited screen time in the Orphan arc already tickled my inner yuri fanboy, but that's just me. I feel no differently about Tomoe in Mai-Otome. Once the character breaks out of her shell...anything can happen. I love not knowing what these characters are capable of doing.

Spoiler:

Hmmm, This was fun! I personally love discussing things with people who say what they think but can respect other's opinions!
Putting that aside, I see your points. If I step out of my understanding of things and see from your perspective I can see why you are annoyed by her. I'd be too, I'd want to hit her with a 2x4!
However, I want to counter some of your points with mine before reaching a conclusion that I'd like to hear your opinion about!

-What's wrong about being a perfect mary sue? Striving for being the best was never a bad quality! Unless you are training to be the best terrorist, then just stop! In perfection lies a problem completely different! There are basically two ways to see perfection, if you acknowledged it either you are annoyed from envy or in awe. Either way you can only judge someone perfect at something from the way they present their perfection: As something they possess over you or something they just excel at. I just see confidence in her.

-Fans like us put her in the spotlight, and since we like her we feel the need to get more from her. I'm not discussing the manga because I didn't see it, and from what I read it was quite the failure in its objectives (the publisher's objectives). Either way, people responded to her, so they were smart business people and included her more.

- I'm confused on the annoyance of her getting more attention than any other character. Are you also annoyed by it? Or were you being sarcastic? Because that's a valid complaint. But really... They had the same official time in the show. Other's even more than her. I like her more, so I'll do fanart/fanfiction/rave about her in particular. If you want to see something of the others and there is not then you need to create it. A show is just a show! All the rave we see around it is fanmade. And fans will create for who they like best. If you don't step back you may get overwhelmed because you start seeing the character through so many different eyes you start getting sick of them and lose sight of what drew you to it in the first place. (Main reason why I stopped reading a lot of fanfiction. They were going places so out of character and so badly explained I honestly felt angry at the characters. And while I was imagining them, they were doing things like they were completely new characters.)

- I'm confused, when did she cheat on Kruger? O,O point me the way!!!!! I need to bitch slap someone!

- Comparing Shizuru to Ahn to Tomoe just because they share something in common that they do differently just feels like picking on her. Tomoe is nothing like Shizuru nor Ahn, the same way Ahn is nothing like Shizuru or Tomoe. But if you assume Shizuru and Ahn have similarities, Tomoe has none with them. What you see the first half of the series is her pretending to be civilized so her idol will like her. She's batshit crazy, revengeful, violent, two-faced and egocentric! And I love her for it! Thank God for Tomoe, makes a lovely pair for Nao, the kinkiness level just bursts through the roof!

-You lost me on the cat and dog analogy.

- The hair... Well, I didn't think she was remotely attractive the first time I saw her. Very different from your usual drop dead gorgeous student council president. Then she spoke. Hello there~.

- You can never attempt to murder someone more than necessary! Until they are dead you didn't try enough!!!!

- They are characters, we can only go by what we see! Even with people you have your own understanding of them! It's you, your experiences and your understanding that will fill in the gaps! (some fanfiction is way too delusional for my taste. But it also depends on the author and the backstory they create to sustain their version of the character. I also have my own.) Specially to write as it is on any other art form you are writing them as if you are in their head, but you can never write them as them! Unless you are schizophrenic you always write as yourself in their skin. Your understanding of things, your thoughts, your reactions but as them, with their background, with their personalities. Each person understands people/characters/things differently, only exact science has unanimous understanding. I like chocolate, you may also like chocolate. I'll kill for a Ferrero Roche though! Will you?
I need to read your fic when I get my will back though! I quite like your view on things!

- Are you referring to the end of the carnival? When she said "sorry tee-hee~!" ? I'm going to be brutally honest on this one. I don't see what's wrong with it. It was a fantastic humorous moment, where she didn't have to say anything, because Nao and Yukino did worse than her. And yet they were frightened of her because she was stronger than them so they just wanted to make sure she wasn't going to kill them again. Even I was a little scared when she went all Matrix on Nao by the window falling behind! That woman has skills!!! But she didn't mean to harm them, it's basic psychology, we all saw her trying to kill people, all she saw were threats to Natsuki's life and her brain will never see anything else until Natsuki is safe (Before the meltdown she protected the academy by herself, after Nagi told her the danger Natsuki was in all she saw were threats). You may be my best friend, if you try to eat my cookies, I will bite your hand off!

- I don't believe she raped Kuga either. But I'm with you, she probably would have killed people at the first district! Morally that's wrong, avoid casualties at all costs! If I were a 17 year old high schooler constantly attacked by scary monsters and with the power to save the person I love while in the middle of a psychological meltdown, without military training I don't see the need to study the facilities for the best course of action, you just go in and take care of the boss! Person you love minus the obstacles to their happiness would be pretty much all I'd see!

- I love Haruka! She's so freaking cool! She's a very hardworker. Alas, Shizuru is the kind that effortlessly does what Haruka (this corrected it to Hanuka constantly, I didn't know she was jewish!!) needs a lot of effort to do. We all know people like that. Both commendable in their own way! Shizuru is smart though, she runs the council the way all managers should run their companies! I don't see where she's wrong. She's taking advantage of her tactical talents. She credits Haruka, everybody knows Haruka does the heavy lifting. But someone needs to direct them. Haruka would run the council using only brutal force! Besides, in Otome we got a glance of the nature of their relationship, they love each other and are competitive best friends, Haruka got worried over her not being her usual perfect self and helped her out! Shizuru appreciates Haruka and both build each other up by challenging each other in everything!

- I need you to explain the taking advantage thing to me better, is that post meltdown? PS: She's very smart about the attention she gets. People will fall at her feet anyway so she handles it with care. She gets annoyed by all the attention sometimes and seeks refuge when she wants to relax, reason why she met Natsuki. But school kids will always flock around you if they admire you. I didn't see her bullying anyone, in fact the skills she learned from handling big groups since a child is now the best training for managing the council.

- About the pedophilia, I'm with you, she wasn't trying to get Krugers attention. It kind of annoys me when Shiznaters always use that excuse! She only did that the time she was about to kiss Arika and then peeked at Natsuki, also the hug she gave her that got Natsuki jealous. Other than that she was teasing them for her pleasure. Though I didn't see any pedophilia there, except with Tomoe. But given the circumstances I can't even point a finger at her!

I like your attitude! You are being proactive! You don't just bitch! You actually make happen what you want to see! That's commendable! I understand why people only go for Shiznat, it's the most interesting couple and the most interesting characters, so they start there. But as fanfiction writers, even starting with Shiznat fics, as we write the other characters we start seeing so much potential hidden on other characters we didn't give much importance before. I myself when i was writing found myself spending the majority of time having fun with Midori, Youko and Nao.
I even like the so called crack pairings!! As long as they are either funny, or their story just for some inexplicable reason starts making sense!

This turned out huge... Bottom line is, people will see mostly what they want to see according to their view of things. It's not often a matter of right or wrong, just different. And particularly for authors, it's their own understanding of things that keep things interesting or just plain rage worthy.

I forgot something... This is all being discussed in an Occidental kind of thinking!!
We must not forget these are Japanese characters! We may all be completely wrong! In every single way!
I've read a book where a guy that starter appreciating manga and anime because of his sons's liking to it went with his kid to Japan so he could write about the influences of it in society. As he interviewed many of the authors and directors he got thoroughly embarrassed every single time because nothing he thought was correct! And he did a lot of research! Our way of thinking is sometimes completely foreign to japanese people.
For instance, if they invite you to their place for even just a quick cup of tea or something, and you say no because you don't want to be a bother on them or their families. You may think you are doing something great, they will get offended! They have every reason to punch you in the face even! They just granted you the biggest honor and privilege and you told them to piss off! Lots of little things filled with meaning hide in anime/manga. We just don't see it!
These are also the people that if you don't make a lot of noise slurping your ramen noodles to the point of being heard in Antarctica, the cook will also have every right to hit you with a frying pan and ban you from his restaurant!

Right, so, there're all of these rebuttals justifying Shizuru's actions. So let's say Tomoe and Shizuru switched places; Tomoe as the Archmeister who decieves and Shizuru as the student who is misled. What would you say then?

Cheshire Kat wrote:Right, so, there're all of these rebuttals justifying Shizuru's actions. So let's say Tomoe and Shizuru switched places; Tomoe as the Archmeister who decieves and Shizuru as the student who is misled. What would you say then?

Wait are we comparing Tomoe's fully aware acts too hime! Shizuru's star influenced ones? I mean I understand the similiarities and as much as I am a shiznat fan and would like to see Shizuru called out for what she did in hime I feel it is somewhat inappropriate to compare the hime to the otome not enough information is known about the extent of the hime star's influence.

Of course if it is simple character role reversal than I would greatly frown upon otome! Shizuru if she did the same things Tomoe did. As there were no otherworldy external forces at work and they were purely malicious acts.

Magus Phantalus wrote:

Cheshire Kat wrote:Right, so, there're all of these rebuttals justifying Shizuru's actions. So let's say Tomoe and Shizuru switched places; Tomoe as the Archmeister who decieves and Shizuru as the student who is misled. What would you say then?

Wait are we comparing Tomoe's fully aware acts too hime! Shizuru's star influenced ones? I mean I understand the similiarities and as much as I am a shiznat fan and would like to see Shizuru called out for what she did in hime I feel it is somewhat inappropriate to compare the hime to the otome not enough information is known about the extent of the hime star's influence.

Of course if it is simple character role reversal than I would greatly frown upon otome! Shizuru if she did the same things Tomoe did. As there were no otherworldy external forces at work and they were purely malicious acts.

What I'm trying to say is, what if what had happened to Tomoe happened to Viola instead; would people try to justify Tomoe, who would've played Viola then stabbed her in the back?

I didn't bring up Fujino in that argument at all. ^^;

Oh sorry I just noticed the similarities of the two situations and thaought that was were you where going with it. Anyway like I said as much of a shiznat fan as I am, no I wouldn't side with Shizuru if she did what Tomoe did.

Magus Phantalus wrote:Oh sorry I just noticed the similarities of the two situations and thaought that was were you where going with it. Anyway like I said as much of a shiznat fan as I am, no I wouldn't side with Shizuru if she did what Tomoe did.

No, see, this isn't what I'm trying to get at. I'm asking if Shizuru fans would feel enraged if Tomoe backstabbed Shizuru like Shizuru did to her.

My apologizes then if I'm not understanding I have been up for over sixteen hours everything looks blurry right about now and my thought processes are a little off to say the least.

Cheshire Kat wrote:Right, so, there're all of these rebuttals justifying Shizuru's actions. So let's say Tomoe and Shizuru switched places; Tomoe as the Archmeister who decieves and Shizuru as the student who is misled. What would you say then?

I'm also a little lost on your question. But because of my view on things. Assuming their personalities stay the same though... All I can visualize is how in the hell was Tomoe even chosen as one of the columns??? That'd would have given one hell of a series though... The Archmeister conspiring to take control and deceiving students! And Shizuru, who probabily wouldn't care if Tomoe took charge of everything as long as Natsuki is safe. Well, that's more like Fujino... Viola actually cares proactively for the others.
So, I honestly am confused as to what you are asking. Were you perhaps wanting to know if I would defend Shizuru if she behaved like Tomoe and Tomoe behaved like Shizuru? Then no. But really, that's because they assumed each other's personalities! Tomoe is nothing like Shizuru and Vice versa.

CaptainVonCookie wrote:

Cheshire Kat wrote:Right, so, there're all of these rebuttals justifying Shizuru's actions. So let's say Tomoe and Shizuru switched places; Tomoe as the Archmeister who decieves and Shizuru as the student who is misled. What would you say then?

I'm also a little lost on your question. But because of my view on things. Assuming their personalities stay the same though... All I can visualize is how in the hell was Tomoe even chosen as one of the columns??? That'd would have given one hell of a series though... The Archmeister conspiring to take control and deceiving students! And Shizuru, who probabily wouldn't care if Tomoe took charge of everything as long as Natsuki is safe. Well, that's more like Fujino... Viola actually cares proactively for the others.
So, I honestly am confused as to what you are asking. Were you perhaps wanting to know if I would defend Shizuru if she behaved like Tomoe and Tomoe behaved like Shizuru? Then no. But really, that's because they assumed each other's personalities! Tomoe is nothing like Shizuru and Vice versa.

You speak as if Shizuru decieved no one. I'm wondering how the hell Viola was picked as Archmeister. I mean, come on. She sexually harassed Natsuki when they were students, is a freaking paedophile, she does these things to make Natsuki pay attention to her, and she's making a giant whirlpool of chaos by doing so. She's selfish. I certainly wouldn't pick her as a political representative. I'd pick her to be a lawyer.

I concur, I really don't think Tomoe is all like Shizuru either. Shizuru does what she does for the hell of it, because she wants to have fun. Tomoe does it because she wants love. Shizuru has the love of every-freaking-body on Earl.

And my question is, for the last time: If Shizuru was glory-fucked (Oh brutal truth, I love you) by Tomoe and left to live with that on her conscious while Tomoe flocked back to her lover and an army of schoolgirls who loved her, what would Shizuru fans say about that?

Sorry if this sounds like a butthurt bull howling because he lost to the madator, but this is how it is. Shizuru played Tomoe. Harshly. And I can't stand for that.

Cheshire Kat wrote:Sorry if this sounds like a butthurt bull howling because he lost to the madator, but this is how it is. Shizuru played Tomoe. Harshly. And I can't stand for that.

The good Captain brought up some good points, Kat. I must ask you something though, does the term "karma's a bitch" apply here? Tomoe treated Miya harshly, tried to embarrass, expel and murder Arika on numerous occasions and even said she would kill the woman she claim to love, just because the odds were stacked against her in the Battle of Garderobe. I'm not saying you're wrong here, Kat. ^^; Like your girlfriend, I feel Tomoe has issues and it's because of those issues that she's completely misunderstood and needed help. However I have to question if Tomoe deserves a piece of harsh treatment in return for all the things she's done in the past. To remain on topic with Shizuru, did she come off as a bigger heel than Tomoe for not only deceiving Tomoe in return, but also sleeping with her?

Also, Captain, in response to your

Tomoe is nothing like Shizuru and Vice versa.

, I could of easily dug this up...



...if I didn't know better. You see, Tomoe saying that was just a nod/wink to the audience for Shizuru Fujino of Mai-HiME fame. To me, Shizuru Viola is a more mature individual with her emotions in tact, and cannot be compared with Tomoe. Yes, her actions with Tomoe were questionable, but Tomoe is the one in the misguided rampage, not Viola.

Spoiler:

Maybe you got me wrong, I never said Shizuru didn't deceive no one. What I did say was that she always had a justification in doing so! And even when it looks like purely for self serving objectives, I don't see where she did wrong. And if someone does (since I haven't seen Otome since the beggining of the year, do come and remind me!)
Shizuru never sexually harrassed Natsuki! She tried to kiss her and got slapped. Hard. Which by itself isn't a bad thing! Takes guts to move in for a first kiss! Where she was wrong was assuming everybody was like her fangirls and ended up hurting someone who honestly respected and looked up to her. Now, Natsuki is also at fault here, she didn't know Shizuru and was forcing her ideal of her onto her. Both felt miserable about it, and grew up and made up and it turned them into better people!
Again... She is not a pedophile. She's pretty much like a Rockstar! She enjoys teasing the fans. That feels like nitpicking to me. I know Pedophiles. She isn't one.
She's selfish. Yes she is. Like every other character! She still puts her own desires aside and does her job properly! And that is why she's Archmeister! Though Shizuru lawyer sounds quite sexy... drools...

You really hate shizuru don't you? Fine by me. I love her. And I love Tomoe. But when your argument is that Tomoe wanted love... I need to stop you. shizuru doesn't have the love of everybody on Earl, she has their respect! Tomoe doesn't love, she obsesses. She's mentally unbalanced. And that's what makes her fun! She's not an eight grader that doesn't know how to show appreciation and so she pushes girls hairs. She's the psychopath that'll drop acid on you if you dare come between her and the object of her obsession knowing full well what'll happen.

Your scenario would only make sense if, one: Natsuki wasn't in the picture. So she's probably still haunted with fangirls left and right wanting a piece of what she shows to be and not who she is. Two: Assuming Tomoe is still the backstabbing serial killer, she just fucked a misguided girl.
If it's consensual and not a matter of "fuck me or Natsuki dies" I don't see the harm. Except then it would probably be pedophilia assuming Shizuru is a minor and Tomoe is much older.

Your question doesn't have the outcome you expect because you keep asking What If questions changing their personalities. If you change their personalities, they are no longer the characters we know. They just look like them on the outside.

Though I gotta say I loved your "glory-fucked" expression. I'm gonna use that!

"Sorry if this sounds like a butthurt bull howling because he lost to the madator" I didn't understand this. What's a madator?

And lastly, darling, if I had to play someone who was my chance of getting my loved one to safety. I'd play her like a stradivarious! And I completely understand if people are against that! I wouldn't be able to sleep if I didn't do everything in my power for the happiness of my loved one.

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:

Also, Captain, in response to your

Tomoe is nothing like Shizuru and Vice versa.

, I could of easily dug this up...



...if I didn't know better. You see, Tomoe saying that was just a nod/wink to the audience for Shizuru Fujino of Mai-HiME fame. To me, Shizuru Viola is a more mature individual with her emotions in tact, and cannot be compared with Tomoe. Yes, her actions with Tomoe were questionable, but Tomoe is the one in the misguided rampage, not Viola.

You lost me. It is morning. And for me that is a perfectly reasonable argument. As it is on the afternoon and late at night. I have a very small window of complete lucidity between after dinner and before sexy time.

Tomoe... Tomoe, Tomoe, Tomoe. I like her. She's interesting. Perfect epitome of the school's bitch!
For a japanese mean school character I think they even dimmed her down. Tomoe is a lot like your bieber hardcore fangirl isn't she? She will kill you for your signed autograph while smiling and she used to be your best friend just 2 minutes ago.

All jokes aside, because I just know I'm pissing off half the world right now... I find it wrong to think of Tomoe with our moral views. Her brain is wired differently. While she's not a complete psychopath, else she wouldn't have acted all sweet for so long, she is just mean as hell and shows partially lacking of the part of the brain that makes us feel regret. (I'm not insulting her, this is a perfectly valid psychological situation) If she doesn't feel remorse, she doesn't see why some things would be bad to do. If I want it, why not just get it? If it's the other's hand I'll just cut them off. Problem solved. (and she actually doesn't see anything wrong with that)

But as your comment suggested are you saying she may have some Fujino inside her?

@CaptainVonCookie:

I never said I hated Shizuru. I just felt like having a debate today. As for my question. I didn't say they were switching personalities. I said they were switching roles.

And don't call me darling.

@Cheshire Cat

What if someone did that to Tomoe before she found Shizuru captured in the cell? Switch Shizuru with Tomoe and have someone else in Tomoe's place. And that someone told Tomoe they'd guarantee Shizuru's safety. How would that play out then?

Apologies, it wasn't meant as derogatory.