I don't really ''get'' that one thing Natsuki said [Mai-HiME]

John Travolta as me
Christian Slater as a representation of rest of the Mai-Multiverse community




"You're out of your mind, Abicion."



"Yeah. Ain't it cool?"



"No, seriously Abby. Your mind has taken a walk off the map."



"That may be, but I'm still going to fruitlessly bitch and moan about the things I don't like about ShizNat."


And nao you understand why this thread's existence was inevitable. nao let's talk about something Natsuki says in the pinnacle moment of the ShizNat storyline.



... pardon?



WHAT? Okay, wait. So nao you're telling me

even though Akane went from being Shy Girl Who Self-Doubts Her Own Power to determined warrior who becomes closer to her VIP when he becomes aware of and accepts her existence, and clearly displays the most traumatic long-term emotional reaction to losing her VIP out of every other character in the series

even though Akira completely changed her VIP from her grandfather, who she simply wanted to honor and didn't really think about every breathing second of her life, to Takumi, who she openly confesses her love for and practically guards religiously at bedside,

even though Yukino went from being Dopey Indecesive Girl Who Follows Haruka Around to taking the initiative and violently throwing herself between Haruka and Shizuru to protect Haruka

even though Nao's motivations were to use her powers to avenge her mother's beating to point that it became her entire life's work

they were all helplessly defeated because they didn't CARE enough? Their losses and all of their resulting suffering were because their love wasn't as AWESOME as ShizNat's, even though their psychotic / depressive post-defeat mental states are indisputable proof in itself of how strongly emotionally attached they were to their VIPs? And on top of that, the main character of the series can't make up her mind about anything and changes her VIP on practically a daily basis, yet constantly has the most beam-spamming Child in the entire series with absolutely no drawbacks whatsoever? How the hell does that work?


goddam. this. story arc.


How does Natsuki's big revelation about Childs even remotely justify Godzilla-sized Autowin Duran? It makes no sense even in the show's universe. There's no real logic behind it. It's literally just some gimmick the writers came up with on the spot with no regard to story continuity, just so they could further shove the fact they wanted Shizuru and Natsuki (and nobody else) to be seen as the "cool" characters down your throat.

There's no consistent basis whatsoever for each Child's design and powers. They're not evolving manifestations of each HiME's form of love. They're pre-designed machines (confirmed on-screen by Obsidian Lord saying Mashiro was the last person to use Kagutsuchi, and Sifr's HiME Encyclopedia showing an older Hari prototype). That would be an interesting concept if it didn't only apply to one specific character for two minutes and the series had actually used it coherently. Instead, the Childs are drawn like straws. How powerful a HiME's Child is purely determined by her LUCK. There's really no depth to it beyond that. Super Duran was a result of the writers accidentally letting Shizuru get too overpowered in their quest to turn her into an attention whore, and they needed a quick excuse to make Natsuki have any possible hope of matching her in battle. UGH.


Okay, I feel better. For nao.

Kara here :)

Now. Concerning this, it really doesn't make too much sense, buuut, I will try to make sense of it.

Maybe Natsuki has a higher understanding of love? I mean, considering her past, I'm sure she would put a higher value on love than other people.

Like, Akane, for example, she's a regular teenager who probably came from a warm, loving family. When I was first introduced to Akane and Kazuya's relationship, I just blew them off as that couple going through, "Teenage Love" everyone's been through it, ya see it all the time.

Yukino, again, more teenage love. Come on, this is more of an admiration thing. Yukino obviously was bullied all or most of her childhood and then Haruka was there to help her out and make her feel good about herself.

Akira, ehh. Teenage love, the things a young lady in love will do for a boy... :)

I don't know if Nao counts, she didn't love her mother romantically.

In Shizuru and Natsuki's case, I think that had all different sorts of love mixed in. Like, best friends, lovers, insane-psycho-love. Maybe it was love on a different level?

Or maybe the rule just changes for lesbians. Or maybe Natsuki was simply mis-informed about this whole thing and just said that to look cool?

The logical fallacy of going "well that's JUST a high school crush" in any scenario is virtually all the HiME are high schoolers and you're only implicating all parties involved when you say that. The story itself takes place in a high school. These are the relationships the entire series is built upon, and Midori, Yukariko, and Fumi are the only exceptions. It's such a shallow reason for shrugging off the gargantuan plotholes that show up in ShizNat, and saying character X just randomly has a "better understanding of love" despite being the same age as everyone else is an equally nebulous excuse.

Kara wrote:Or maybe Natsuki was simply mis-informed about this whole thing and just said that to look cool?

That doesn't explain how Super Duran actually happened, though.

The logical fallacy of going "well that's JUST a high school crush" is virtually all the HiME are high schoolers. The story itself takes place in a high school. These are the relationships the entire series is built upon, and Midori, Yukariko, and Fumi are the only exceptions. It's such a shallow reason for shrugging off the gargantuan plotholes that show up in ShizNat, and saying character X just randomly has a "better understanding of love" despite being the same age as everyone else is an equally nebulous excuse.

Well, not everyone is the same in their comprehension of love, and at that point and time of your life, you think, "This person is my everything, I love them, I wanna be with them forever, blah, blah, blah" I mean, maybe this isn't a valid argument in your point of view because you are not a teenaged girl.

That doesn't explain how Super Duran actually happened, though.

She realized her full potential? She was in a corner, like a scared cat, so she brought out the heavy artillery?

i think duran grew extra big because natsuki was the only hime who said she didn't have a most important person, while all the other himes at least acknowledged that they had a most important person.

Kara wrote:Well, not everyone is the same in their comprehension of love, and at that point and time of your life, you think, "This person is my everything, I love them, I wanna be with them forever, blah, blah, blah" I mean, maybe this isn't a valid argument in your point of view because you are not a teenaged girl.

You don't need to be a teenage girl to analyze the characters with common sense.

You cannot honestly look at Akane's absolutely hysterical, bouncing-off-the-walls, talking-to-people-who-aren't-there-about-a-dress-she's-not-actually-wearing psychotic state after losing Kazuya and say "Yeah, he was just a flavor-of-the-month thing she was never really emotionally invested in."

And saying the same for Akira silently sitting in a corner all day or Yukino vacantly staring at Haruka's armband all day is almost as much of a stretch.

There's no evidence that Natsuki's bond to Shizuru is any stronger, aside from the show forcibly dictating that the bond is stronger in complete disregard to its own context.

Kara wrote:She realized her full potential? She was in a corner, like a scared cat, so she brought out the heavy artillery?

You mean like

even though Yukino went from being Dopey Indecesive Girl Who Follows Haruka Around to taking the initiative and violently throwing herself between Haruka and Shizuru to protect Haruka

?

It took losing the battle with miyu for akane to realize that this is serious and therefore realizing the magnatude of what has happened she loses her mind. as a teenager you think you are invincible and will live forever I don't think any one would take something like hey you have migical wepons now and a giant fighting monster but if you loose the most important person to you will kick it would be taken into account as the holy crap I have migical wepons and a kick ass monster thing would create tunnel vision. the other hime get to learn the gravity of this through akane's loss that this is SRS business so the ones not lurking in the shadows try to band together to prevent this from happening to them. You are asking us to answer the "why do bad things happen to "good" People" question here. Akane is just the sacrificial lamb and sometimes that is just how it is.

You don't need to be a teenage girl to analyze the characters with common sense.

Obviously, you do. Because you aren't getting it.

You cannot honestly look at Akane's absolutely hysterical, bouncing-off-the-walls, talking-to-people-who-aren't-there-about-a-dress-she's-not-actually-wearing psychotic state after losing Kazuya and say "Yeah, he was just a flavor-of-the-month thing she was never really emotionally invested in."

I can. Do you know why? I have seen girls who are so dependent, so in love with their boyfriends, that when one day they break up on bad terms, the girl cries all day, misses school for like a week, and then comes back still depressed. Or maybe, that's just how she deals with death. You hear about people all the time that can't accept someone's death so they pretend it didn't happen or they keep their dead body in their basement. Do you know how traumatizing it is to watch someone you love die right in front of you? In your arms? I don't know from experience, but I hear it's a pretty horribly traumatizing thing to go through. Some people don't recover.

And saying the same for Akira silently sitting in a corner all day

Uhm...If I remember correctly, she was tied there.

or Yukino vacantly staring at Haruka's armband all day is almost as much of a stretch.

Again, mourning the death of your best friend. Some people don't deal with it well at all.

There's no evidence that Natsuki's bond to Shizuru is any stronger, aside from the show forcibly dictating that the bond is stronger in complete disregard to its own context.

Well, Natsuki, who's mother and dog died in the same accident that put her in a coma for a year, then she wakes up to find she has no family or friends and she's like 7 and so then she learns her mother was killed on purpose, and so then she goes around with the mindset that she shouldn't trust anyone ever. But then you have Shizuru, who jumps in and basically forces Natsuki to trust her and open up to people again. So, uh...Do you see anyone else with those kind of circumstances? As the only Shizuru was the only friend or bond that Natsuki had to focus on for a long time, wouldn't you think that it would be strong?

zanekal1 wrote:It took losing the battle with miyu for akane to realize that this is serious and therefore realizing the magnatude of what has happened she loses her mind.

Yes, the magnitude of losing the one person who was most important to her. The person who, judging by Akane's unique reaction, was more important to her than any of the other VIPs were to their respective HiME.

And now that we're officially splintering into this discussion...

zanekal1 wrote:as a teenager you think you are invincible and will live forever I don't think any one would take something like hey you have migical wepons now and a giant fighting monster but if you loose the most important person to you will kick it would be taken into account as the holy crap I have migical wepons and a kick ass monster thing would create tunnel vision.

Again, you're acting as if these qualities are exclusive to Akane when they apply to almost every character in the series.

zanekal1 wrote:You are asking us to answer the "why do bad things happen to "good" People" question here.

If anything, I'm asking why do good things happen to bad people. The entire point of this discussion is to figure out why ShizNat gets some flashy power-up that doesn't apply to any other character in the series.

zanekal1 wrote:Akane is just the sacrificial lamb and sometimes that is just how it is.

Here's where your argument collapses on itself. You can't take one of the most nonsensical moments of the entire series and say it makes sense "just because" on the same page you're saying it has any sort of real reason or meaning.

And don't worry, I get how Akane's loss was supposed to make the story dark and edgy from a writing perspective. The problem is, there's absolutely no reason for Akane's loss in the TV series other than to forcibly take the story in that direction. It's not the result of character growth or a decision somebody makes (well, aside from Miyu's decision of "Hey guys I'm going to randomly be a Terminator for this one specific scene and then never mention it again"). The writers are literally just dictating "This is where we want you to feel sad," and it only gets worse when the show makes a later revelation that shows Akane's Child should have automatically become daikaiju-sized in episode 8 and swallowed Miyu whole, thus preventing that entire route in the first place.

And what kills me is it's all part of the same general problem where the show will prompt you to think a certain way (examples: feeling bad for Akane; thinking ShizNat is godly; seeing Nagi as having any sort of psychological higher ground after the characters become aware he's BSing them) with no actual in-story justification. They're just spontaneous events that happen for no logical reason beyond artificially creating the pseudo-gothic/dramatic tone Sunrise randomly decided they wanted the story arc to have.

It's the kind of writing that treats the viewer like an idiot. It's a story that insists it's being deep and complicated when a basic review of the facts reveals it has no actual depth. That's why I'll never be able to take the Festival Arc and its ShizNat byproduct seriously.

Okay, Lets put this simply. They were not defeated because they didn't care enough, they were defeated because of both circumstances of the fight, such as Nao held Shizuru's MIP captive thus motivating Shizuru to fight that much harder. Or there can be love that means different things, it doesn't have to romantic love to be powerful.

As for durans increase in size however, I personally believe that it is because that because Natsuki's first MIP was her mother who was already dead that when Natsuki realized that it Shizuru was who was Most Important to her she became all the more powerful because of it.

I know this is very late but I couldn't help but comment once seeing this. I believe the idea was that they didn't care enough but the fact they were fighting.
Let's look at it case by case:
Akane who just got closer to her VIP takes down an orphan with ease. Then boom her fellow school mate takes down her CHIlD.. She wasn't fighting to save her VIP due to fact one I bet she was going "what in the--" in her head and also she didn't know she would lose her VIP this wasn't explained to anyone at this point.
Shizuru who wasn't fighting for power but with the idea of making her VIP person happy.. Even if it was slightly twisted and way out there, her VIP was her sole focus. (That also plot device.. So yeah)
Shiho who was fighting with the idea of getting Mai out of the way to be with her VIP. (slightly both but wait I'll explain this soon.)
Mikoto who couldn't even call out her CHIlD (properly) had the idea of serving her VIP in the start of the series and towards the end.
Akira wasn't fighting but in fact running away from nao, worrying about her VIP health then being lost on top of top before boom CHIlDS everywhere and fighting ensures causing chaos.
Nao was fighting just for revenge.. Yes she did know she would lose her mother but her mother wasn't one her mind when taunting her prey.
Fumi.. I got nothing.
Yukariko who was twisted in the mind of what was right and wrong.. Yet notice her CHILD was strong and could have been taken anyone else out if given the chance. She fought for whatever her VIP thought must be done. (even if he was slightly out there also)
Midori in her final battle was fighting off mikoto to make sure that the cycle would end or to bid thy prince farewell. She knew the risk but was fighting for something else.
Yukino who was, yes fighting for her VIP yet lets admit it her CHILD wasn't to battle. Yes I'm sure could do some damage but let's face it, it had a very useful skill for spying or making everything look normal but it wasn't to fight. The size of it was nothing to laugh at and lets face it once of the biggest until the final four surviving HIME also it was underground so sneak attacks was useful. So the fact that it wasn't really for offense and faced freaking snakes that seem to pop out of no where (including the ground) it wouldn't last long. (That and it was the start of plot device shizuru)
Mai who already had a powerful CHILD that had in fact been the last more then once and also with the fact that.. Well Mai is main character. As for it's a little level up moment it came at that moment when if something didn't happen everyone would be dead. It follows along the line of love is good. Yup.
Last but not least Natsuki, her child being the smallest at the start which could be due to fact she never admitted who her VIP was or even notice it herself. When her CHILD had it's own level up moment her one focus was her VIP.

Now congrats if you've read all that and if you still don't get what I'm talking about then I'm talking about the fact some CHILD was bigger and stronger due to the fact of why the HIME were fighting, not due to how much they loved they VIP. Yes, yes love was mentioned in the screen shot but think about it. Who was fighting actually fighting for their VIP, not oh man I just lose and that means.. Oh no! I mean actually going into the battle with this is life or death for the person I hold most dear to my heart, I can't lose not I'm going to win to get the power or revenge or whatever. Mai lost control of her CHILD when fighting for revenge (which isn't the first time if memory serves me correct) and everyone else was just going I have to win for such and such. I hope that gets my point across and again sorry for the long post for a dead topic.. Just my thoughts and I would love to see what anyone else had to say about this.

What exactly was this topic about? Why some childs were bigger than others? About Natsuki's line? Why come characters got more emphasis?

Regarding Child size's and it's relation to the Himes's feelings, it's an interesting topic. But I honestly don't see any hole in the anime regarding that, except for Kagutsuchi's constant size. But I think it served well into leaving us clueless who Mai's MIP was in the end.

I agree with Demonwolf.
Most childs were gone not due to their potential power but due to the Himes they faced. Having the biggest child would do nothing for you if you are mousy and a scaredy cat. If Haruka had a child the anime would have ended in the first ep by accident! XD

That doesn't explain how Super Duran actually happened, though----from abicain.

Super Duran happened from the growth of natsuki's love for shizuru. she realized that she really really loved her. that explains why he grew so big.

My assumption was always that Size and Power aren't always equvalent, Remember it took Mai, Natsuki and Mikoto to fight off MIYU, so we can assume that MIYU is definitely stronger than the average HiME, Perhaps Hari was extremely powerful, but Miyu's quick strike was stronger than the average Child Attack. Duran gets larger with Natsuki's love, perhaps Hari gets much faster like Ray Kon's Drigger from Beyblade

Midori Sugiura wrote:My assumption was always that Size and Power aren't always equvalent, Remember it took Mai, Natsuki and Mikoto to fight off MIYU, so we can assume that MIYU is definitely stronger than the average HiME, Perhaps Hari was extremely powerful, but Miyu's quick strike was stronger than the average Child Attack. Duran gets larger with Natsuki's love, perhaps Hari gets much faster like Ray Kon's Drigger from Beyblade

^ I just want to comment that episode 25 Natsuki Kuga could definitely beat Miyu. :)

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:

Midori Sugiura wrote:My assumption was always that Size and Power aren't always equvalent, Remember it took Mai, Natsuki and Mikoto to fight off MIYU, so we can assume that MIYU is definitely stronger than the average HiME, Perhaps Hari was extremely powerful, but Miyu's quick strike was stronger than the average Child Attack. Duran gets larger with Natsuki's love, perhaps Hari gets much faster like Ray Kon's Drigger from Beyblade

^ I just want to comment that episode 25 Natsuki Kuga could definitely beat Miyu. :)

*shrugs* I'll concede, I think so too