Put yourself in ShizNat's shoes (Mai-HiME Episode 22-23)

Artemis0820 wrote:Well, if I were Natsuki, I would've done the same thing. It's pretty natural for a conservative girl like Natsuki to be surprised at the actions Shizuru did. Of course, you'll also feel betrayed... somewhat being kept in the dark like that. But, you can't hold grudges forever, and it'll be pretty hard to move on life without your best friend, you'll be back to zero if you wouldn't forgive her. You also have a debt on her, her efforts for you were the ones in need of repayal. Probably I'm saying that their relationship is a give-and-take, well, no. I'm not pointing it that way but saying that if you I were Natsuki, I would've thought that "in all the efforts that Shizuru has given me, why haven't I given her something in return? how about our friendship back? how about forgiveness?" or something like that. plus, i'll be pretty curious of this, "what did she really do? why did she do such things?," that i'd like to talk to her to straighten up things. (sadly, some people aren't like that...)

and if i were Shizuru, I'll probably feel scared. scared, not knowing what to do. actually, i don't know what to do in these situations. i'm just gonna go with the flow of the conversation and think out my thoughts then.

*nods* I completely agree with everything you said. The hardest thing for a human being to do is forgive. Notice that I did not include "forget". One can never forget hurtful incidents and I'd never patronize someone telling them that we can "just pretend this never happened". The best people like Natsuki and Shizuru can do is move on with their lives and ensure they strengthen their bond so that something like that never happens again. Love and understanding brings people together in the darkest of hours, you just have to take that one giant step, rather than step back in fear of getting hurt. That was Natsuki once, unable to trust anyone. Now with forgiving Shizuru, for the time time, everything is clear for her.

If I was Natsuki in the situation, I would probably have reacted the sane way. I don't know if Natsuki is particulary doing this for Shizuru because I believe that she always carries this kind of knight attitude with her. She would have probably done the same for Mai. I mean she is even protecting Nao although she wanted to kill her moments ago. Natsuki is just a forgiving individual. But her trust is fragíle...If it was me, I would have forgiven Shizuru as well but more for her sake than for mine cause I made the experience that even if I want it real bad, I am not able to forgive certain things. I try to blind them out but the memories of the betrayal are there and I cannot erase them. Things would probably work out for a while but deep in my heart the doorf for Shizuru would have been closed to a certain amount and if somebody would ever come close to this part of my heart and would be able to open it, Shizuru would probably be on the short end.

If I were Shizuru, I would probably freak out as well but going out and killing people and even friends of the person I love, I doubt I would do this. I would rather try to stay as far away from the trouble to make sure that Natsuki is not going to disappear because of me. After all I can't really relate to the crazy reaction of her but then if it had happened, I would definitely stop with the fooling around and perfect mask thing. This whole like-nothing-happened-attitude is what I really dislike. I mean the whole apology scene to Nao and Yukino made me really want to slap her. I mean moments ago she was crying. However I think I would have been more regretful even Natsuki would have forgive me so soon.

Amaya wrote:I mean the whole apology scene to Nao and Yukino made me really want to slap her. I mean moments ago she was crying. However I think I would have been more regretful even Natsuki would have forgive me so soon.

(( That particular scene, right? XD You're kinda right, it's as if Shizuru just swept what she did to Nao and Yukino under the carpet. I can understand why SUNRISE did that, the final battle was coming ahead and they just wanted to move the scene along quickly. Still, there should of been a scene later with Shizuru giving a sincere apology to them both.))

Kagura wrote:

Amaya wrote:I mean the whole apology scene to Nao and Yukino made me really want to slap her. I mean moments ago she was crying. However I think I would have been more regretful even Natsuki would have forgive me so soon.

(( That particular scene, right? XD You're kinda right, it's as if Shizuru just swept what she did to Nao and Yukino under the carpet. I can understand why SUNRISE did that, the final battle was coming ahead and they just wanted to move the scene along quickly. Still, there should of been a scene later with Shizuru giving a sincere apology to them both.))

true that. but i didn't really hated Shizuru in that part or wanted to slap her or anything. my thoughts on this was "IT'S ALL SUNRISE'S FAULT!" hahaha, lol. Sunrise, for me, wanted some comedy and not all drama, and of course, to speed up the ending. (time for an episode is roughly 24 minutes i think.) i really wish that they would've had some sort of part where Shizuru really apologizes to them, truly and sincerely. but maybe it all went crystal clear when they defeated the Obsidian chuchu. idk

Artemis0820 wrote:true that. but i didn't really hated Shizuru in that part or wanted to slap her or anything. my thoughts on this was "IT'S ALL SUNRISE'S FAULT!" hahaha, lol. Sunrise, for me, wanted some comedy and not all drama, and of course, to speed up the ending. (time for an episode is roughly 24 minutes i think.) i really wish that they would've had some sort of part where Shizuru really apologizes to them, truly and sincerely. but maybe it all went crystal clear when they defeated the Obsidian chuchu. idk

(( SUNRISE kinda followed the tradition of Sailor Moon in that regard. Some comedy mixed with the drama. It's usually SUNRISE's fault for a lot of things I personally found wrong in the Mai-Series. No matter, they got more right than wrong in my book. ))

Kagura wrote:

Artemis0820 wrote:true that. but i didn't really hated Shizuru in that part or wanted to slap her or anything. my thoughts on this was "IT'S ALL SUNRISE'S FAULT!" hahaha, lol. Sunrise, for me, wanted some comedy and not all drama, and of course, to speed up the ending. (time for an episode is roughly 24 minutes i think.) i really wish that they would've had some sort of part where Shizuru really apologizes to them, truly and sincerely. but maybe it all went crystal clear when they defeated the Obsidian chuchu. idk

(( SUNRISE kinda followed the tradition of Sailor Moon in that regard. Some comedy mixed with the drama. It's usually SUNRISE's fault for a lot of things I personally found wrong in the Mai-Series. No matter, they got more right than wrong in my book. ))

mine's kinda neutral. it's because sometimes they add fillers not following the series, kinda pisses you off if it's also boring. hahaha

Artemis0820 wrote:mine's kinda neutral. it's because sometimes they add fillers not following the series, kinda pisses you off if it's also boring. hahaha

XD Only when I think about the more straight-to-the-point manga and the latest EXA manga (which you can download here )

Most of the time I don't make the comparisons so I can enjoy the feature better. This goes for both Mai-HiME/Otome and Sailor Moon.

Off-topic, you may want to introduce yourself again in the introduction forum since everything's back to normal.

*off-topic*
sure, i'll introduce myself again... maybe later. boredom's not letting me do anything at the moment XD

Continuing our new topic discussion from the other thread. The thought of being violated by someone you trust, well, you never quite recover from that. Or do you?

If you were Natsuki and you overheard everything Yukino said, what would be your immediate reaction? Would you curse Shizuru's name for the rest of your life? Or would you put your angst and vengeance aside and forgive her?

I'm normally in Shizuru's position but I have seen things from Natsuki's perspective. I have never been violated by someone I trust, just betrayed by someone I trust. And in my case, I was in love and I was actually dating a man. If I was violated in a way that Shizuru violated Natsuki I am certain I wouldn't forget or recover my relationship with that person unless I just so happened to be in love with him or her coincidentally.

But there's also the question of how a person keeps functioning when violated like that. In the case of Natsuki she was obviously violated and betrayed yet cared enough about saving Shizuru from herself that her guns came back. Personally, to me at least, a strong enough bond can withstand anything to the extent affection is still evident towards each other. Violated or not, I truly believe that Shizuru and Natsuki managed to work things out rather off-screen and in such a way that it isn't fair. ><

Should the Shizuru in my scenario, male or female, care about winning my trust back enough then it would be possible to prove me wrong. For example, when my trust was abused by my ex-boyfriend, I sadly didn't fall out of love with him just because he took advantage of my trust. Whether he was lying or serious he still cared enough to beg for my forgiveness, and sadly I'm sure he has it.

If you were Shizuru, how would you try to fix the situation and earn Natsuki's trust back? And don't say go on a killing spree! This is without any Reito mind-fuckingg. XDDD

I am far more likely to echo in Shizuru's footsteps than be in Natsuki's position. Although I am not proud of this I have difficulty winning anyone's trust back once I've lost it, because it actually takes THEIR effort as well. I can't just give my all to win their trust back if they won't give me another chance. So, if they want me to remain in their life even though I've lost their trust then they'll need to put me on some type of probation that allows me to attempt winning it back. It takes two to have a friendship.

So, even though I did the damage, if they completely cut me off from communication with them then it's hard to do anything to fix the situation.

In Shizuru's footsteps I'd probably be screwed since I rarely lose anyone's trust once I've gained it.

Lerena wrote:So, even though I did the damage, if they completely cut me off from communication with them then it's hard to do anything to fix the situation.

Strongly agree here. I hated to cut communication between myself and this girl I knew who not only betrayed me, but sold herself out. Deep down I wanted to fix it somehow and unfortunately it never happened. She blew it, Tommy Gunn style. You never bite the hand that feeds you, even when that hand made one mistake.

On the bright side, I found my ShizNat happy ending with someone else who was closer to me for over 3 years. <3

MidnightPersona wrote:Also, I'm pretty sure (speculation but still) that Shizuru gave a better apology later, she doesn't seem the type to let things lie like that. But the anime was ending and there was no time for that. (Like how they never had time for more HaruKino, but that's beside the point. xD) so I DO think Shizuru got everything straitened out on that front.

Ara, I suppose I just feel that love isn't necessarily and excuse, but it is the ultimate reason. The heart will usually overpower the mind... and love can sometimes be more painful than hate.[/color]

Shizuru most likely gave Haruka and the others a better apology later as you can see Shizuru among the other HiME in the final Mai-HiME OVA, which you can see here:

Mai HiME Special: Kuro no Mai Saigo no Bansan in HD

No one seem to be keeping their distance from her, so she must be back on good terms with HaruKino. ;3

In my opinion, love is the most powerful force on Earth. It's another form of "reality" or "life". It will beat the toughest person down. You have to be willing to take the hits and hopefully end up with someone willing to take the hits with you. Love is beautiful when everything is in balance. I'd like to think I have that in my relationship nao.

Remember that Natsuki and Shizuru are very young, just discovering what love is all about. Will they remain together forever? It all depends on them, some married couples out there were a result of "love at first sight". I'd like to consider this for ShizNat as they're animated characters, they qualify for that "And they lived Happily Ever After" shit.

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:Strongly agree here. I hated to cut communication between myself and this girl I knew who not only betrayed me, but sold herself out. Deep down I wanted to fix it somehow and unfortunately it never happened. She blew it, Tommy Gunn style. You never bite the hand that feeds you, even when that hand made one mistake.

On the bright side, I found my ShizNat happy ending with someone else who was closer to me for over 3 years. <3

I hope I get to have my ShizNat happy ending someday. I'm sure I'll have lots of Shizuru-esque moments before then.

most people said, that if they where natsuki they would react the same. i can mostly quote that. so i don't want to dig deeper into that, cause aside of that i would ask myself some other thing after the whole situation had sunk in a little:
if there was someone who saw it, why didn't they stop it?
okay, maybe this is a little off topic now, but since this is the only place i've found which is discussing this scene from ep 22 i put it here.
so, when yukino saw what shizuru was going to do to sleeping natsuki, why didn't she stop it? she just let it happen (whatever shizuru did) and when it was done, she used it against shizuru.
if yukino would have reacted instead of just watching, it wouldn't have happened.

if i were shizuru... well... honestly i really don't know what i would do in her situation.

she-ga-roo wrote:most people said, that if they where natsuki they would react the same. i can mostly quote that. so i don't want to dig deeper into that, cause aside of that i would ask myself some other thing after the whole situation had sunk in a little:
if there was someone who saw it, why didn't they stop it?
okay, maybe this is a little off topic now, but since this is the only place i've found which is discussing this scene from ep 22 i put it here.
so, when yukino saw what shizuru was going to do to sleeping natsuki, why didn't she stop it? she just let it happen (whatever shizuru did) and when it was done, she used it against shizuru.
if yukino would have reacted instead of just watching, it wouldn't have happened.

if i were shizuru... well... honestly i really don't know what i would do in her situation.

Very good question!

It's in my nature to try to understand people and see things from their POV (which can sometimes be a bad thing, sometimes a good thing), so I would like to say that the reason why the timid, (and very fearful, during the time of the Carnival) Yukino didn't do anything to stop Shizuru from doing whatever she did to Natsuki, was because Yukino was afraid of losing Haruka in a confrontation (that leads to a child-battle) with Shizuru. However, this reason is very unlikely to be true, because, Yukino couldn't have been afraid of losing Haruka in a child-battle with Shizuru, because she didn't know Shizuru was a Hime (until the Shizuru vs. Harukino scene later in the episode ("Fujino-san, you (are a Hime) too?!")). This may portray Yukino in a bad light to some people (but not to me, because I can understand her lack of action a little, as long as it comes with terrible guilt), but maybe Yukino wanted to stop Shizuru, because she knew what Shizuru was doing to Natsuki was wrong, but she couldn't muster up the courage to move, to do anything about it. That's what I'd like to think. Anybody else have any suggestions?

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:
In my opinion, love is the most powerful force on Earth. It's another form of "reality" or "life". It will beat the toughest person down. You have to be willing to take the hits and hopefully end up with someone willing to take the hits with you. Love is beautiful when everything is in balance. I'd like to think I have that in my relationship nao.

Remember that Natsuki and Shizuru are very young, just discovering what love is all about. Will they remain together forever? It all depends on them, some married couples out there were a result of "love at first sight". I'd like to consider this for ShizNat as they're animated characters, they qualify for that "And they lived Happily Ever After" shit.

Very well-said! I agree, especially with the happily-ever part.

As a very loyal person, I agree that love can potentially "last forever." As a very guarded person with trust and attachment issues, I can understand if it doesn't, even if I were to really want it to...

Natsuki: "Stop being so damn depressing and get to the other responses!"
Me: "Oh, right. Ok!" *continues*

MidnightPersona wrote: I've seen what I myself will do for those I love and it is quiet extreme. When I decide to care about someone I care and do anything for them... until I get betrayed.

Which brings me to Natsuki. Here's a question: Does Natsuki consider it betrayal? I keep thinking and thinking about it and... I don't think I would blame Shizuru myself. Between Reito, the HiME star, and everything else... I'd look at myself and try to see why the hell I didn't see how she loved me sooner. (Which if I was Natsuki I probably would've figured it out.)

I would do my best and try to save Shizuru from herself.

Also, I'm pretty sure (speculation but still) that Shizuru gave a better apology later, she doesn't seem the type to let things lie like that. But the anime was ending and there was no time for that. (Like how they never had time for more HaruKino, but that's beside the point. xD) so I DO think Shizuru got everything straitened out on that front.

... and love can sometimes be more painful than hate.

Very well said. I agree with all your points here!

My first question I'd ask myself (if I were in Natsuki's position) would be: "How the hell did I sleep through that?!"

Lerena wrote:In Shizuru's footsteps I'd probably be screwed since I rarely lose anyone's trust once I've gained it.

I'm with you on that. I'm a bit extreme (and stupid) about it, but I'll go out of my way to distance myself from people just so I won't upset them... Dealing with conflict is not my strong point, so whenever I get even the slightest sense that I may be causing it, I back off completely. This usually takes the form of (and only gets to the point of) me shutting up so I don't creep aquaintances out by talking to them too much... I'm much less adept at doing this online, so please, if I start to creep anybody out, just tell me to go away. I'll understand and appreciate it if you do.


Thread: (With references from Luu's, MidnightPersona's, and Lerena's posts)
Like Luu said, some of us on this thread will draw from our own Natsuki and Shizuru-like experiences: I've never been in Natsuki's exact situation (whatever that may be, whether it be gentle touches, or full violation), but I've been kissed twice without my consent (while sleeping or half-asleep).
The first time was by my ex girlfriend (before she and I had started dating). After I had randomly mentioned the Shiznat scene (where Shizuru kisses the sleeping Natsuki) to her, she told me (I forget what her tone was, if she sounded guilty or non-chalant) that she had kissed me while I was sleeping, before she and I had started dating. My first thought was: "How the hell did I sleep through that?!" My second was: "Hm, ok...I wonder what's for lunch today?" (completely moving on, because she was my girlfriend and I knew that she was in love with me, so I didn't blame her for kissing me).
The second time, I was kissed while I was only half-asleep. The person who kissed me was one of my best friends (I have 4 "best friends"). I was sleeping over at her house, and she and I were talking late at night (Her:"What's kissing a girl like?" Me:"I dunno.." Her:"Yes you do!" Me:"Um...it's ok I guess...Can we talk about something different?" Her:"Can you take me to a gay bar sometime?" Me:"Sure, sure. So what are we going to do to about the World Cup this year? A normal bar? Your house? My house?..."). I got really tired (that girl could talk for hours...) and started to drift off. The next thing I knew, there was a pair of lips crashing onto my mouth. I moved back and said something like "What was that?!" I vaguely remember her saying "So, you didn't like it?" to which I replied "No, I didn't..." and fell asleep immediately after. The next morning, I wondered if what had happened was a dream, or if my straight best friend had really kissed me the night before. That day, I tried to look for signs of her being nervous around me, but didn't see any. She's the type to do something crazy like that and then be able to act like she did nothing wrong. That's a quirk I had come to accept and like about her. I knew/know that she really did kiss me, but I don't really care. It doesn't change my opinion of her, and I'm not uncomfortable around her at all. Thinking back on the situation makes me laugh.

I honestly couldn't see me allowing myself to get into a situation like Shizuru's (especially with something physical. I'd never touch anybody (in any way! Whether it be hand-holding, kissing, anything) who I don't know would certainly be 100% ok with it). But if I were to be in Shizuru's situation, I don't think I'd have the guts to ask for forgiveness. I'd tell Natsuki that I was really sorry, and that what I did was unforgivable, and then I'd leave, fully expecting and accepting the fact that Natsuki would hate me forever. I would never be able to forgive myself, because performing an action like that (violating somebody) would completely go against my nature, and therefore be a conscious decision of mine, my own fault. I could never do that. Even if I loved somebody. (Possibly, especially if I loved somebody.) MidnightPersona said that the heart can override the mind, and I agree with that, in many cases, but for me, my mind almost always wins when it comes to passionate, heart vs. mind decisions.
The case is the opposite though when it comes to id/impulsiveness vs. ego and superego/rationality, though. I can be pretty stupid/impulsive sometimes... XP When it comes to people's feelings though, my brain usually kicks in and takes over, so I can best avoid hurting other people's feelings.

MissSoccerNinja wrote:Very well-said! I agree, especially with the happily-ever part.

As a very loyal person, I agree that love can potentially "last forever." As a very guarded person with trust and attachment issues, I can understand if it doesn't, even if I were to really want it to...

Natsuki: "Stop being so damn depressing and get to the other responses!"
Me: "Oh, right. Ok!" *continues*

There's nothing with wanting the relationship to last forever, it just takes two very dedicated people to make that happen. A lot of people out there, including myself, were never that lucky. Have I experienced the happily ever after moment? Yes. Did it last? No.

Probably why many fanfiction authors write ShizNat growing apart in their future (obviously, for the purple of hooking up with another Mai-Series character like I dunno... and ).

Regardless of how you see ShizNat, it's quite clear that Natsuki is always at a peaceful state of mind around Shizuru and considers her a true friend. Recovering from the Carnival arc made them stronger in my opinion, it's an experience that will keep them closer than ever.

MissSoccerNinja wrote:I honestly couldn't see me allowing myself to get into a situation like Shizuru's (especially with something physical. I'd never touch anybody (in any way! Whether it be hand-holding, kissing, anything) who I don't know would certainly be 100% ok with it). But if I were to be in Shizuru's situation, I don't think I'd have the guts to ask for forgiveness. I'd tell Natsuki that I was really sorry, and that what I did was unforgivable, and then I'd leave, fully expecting and accepting the fact that Natsuki would hate me forever. I would never be able to forgive myself, because performing an action like that (violating somebody) would completely go against my nature, and therefore be a conscious decision of mine, my own fault. I could never do that. Even if I loved somebody. (Possibly, especially if I loved somebody.) MidnightPersona said that the heart can override the mind, and I agree with that, in many cases, but for me, my mind almost always wins when it comes to passionate, heart vs. mind decisions.
The case is the opposite though when it comes to id/impulsiveness vs. ego and superego/rationality, though. I can be pretty stupid/impulsive sometimes... XP When it comes to people's feelings though, my brain usually kicks in and takes over, so I can best avoid hurting other people's feelings.

Sometimes the hardest thing in the world for anyone is forgiveness. We all have egos that get the better of us, causing further damage. Therefore, the "what have I done" thoughts begin to haunt you for an eternity. Shizuru would of been completely destroyed if Natsuki chose to not forgive her after they were revived. I'm aware some of you would of liked that...I wouldn't. Natsuki showed that she was very mature, strong and caring to forgive the actions by Shizuru all for the sake of friendship and love (however you see it as).

MissSoccerNinja wrote:

she-ga-roo wrote:most people said, that if they where natsuki they would react the same. i can mostly quote that. so i don't want to dig deeper into that, cause aside of that i would ask myself some other thing after the whole situation had sunk in a little:
if there was someone who saw it, why didn't they stop it?
okay, maybe this is a little off topic now, but since this is the only place i've found which is discussing this scene from ep 22 i put it here.
so, when yukino saw what shizuru was going to do to sleeping natsuki, why didn't she stop it? she just let it happen (whatever shizuru did) and when it was done, she used it against shizuru.
if yukino would have reacted instead of just watching, it wouldn't have happened.

if i were shizuru... well... honestly i really don't know what i would do in her situation.

Very good question!

It's in my nature to try to understand people and see things from their POV (which can sometimes be a bad thing, sometimes a good thing), so I would like to say that the reason why the timid, (and very fearful, during the time of the Carnival) Yukino didn't do anything to stop Shizuru from doing whatever she did to Natsuki, was because Yukino was afraid of losing Haruka in a confrontation (that leads to a child-battle) with Shizuru. However, this reason is very unlikely to be true, because, Yukino couldn't have been afraid of losing Haruka in a child-battle with Shizuru, because she didn't know Shizuru was a Hime (until the Shizuru vs. Harukino scene later in the episode ("Fujino-san, you (are a Hime) too?!")). This may portray Yukino in a bad light to some people (but not to me, because I can understand her lack of action a little, as long as it comes with terrible guilt), but maybe Yukino wanted to stop Shizuru, because she knew what Shizuru was doing to Natsuki was wrong, but she couldn't muster up the courage to move, to do anything about it. That's what I'd like to think. Anybody else have any suggestions?

not brining up teh courage to help someone if i think they where raped or something? if that really was the reason, then yukino is really low... even if i actually didn't have anything against her, but this question just happened to dig it's way into my brain, why she didn't do anything if she had observed the scene.

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:

MissSoccerNinja wrote:Very well-said! I agree, especially with the happily-ever part.

As a very loyal person, I agree that love can potentially "last forever." As a very guarded person with trust and attachment issues, I can understand if it doesn't, even if I were to really want it to...

Natsuki: "Stop being so damn depressing and get to the other responses!"
Me: "Oh, right. Ok!" *continues*

There's nothing with wanting the relationship to last forever, it just takes two very dedicated people to make that happen. A lot of people out there, including myself, were never that lucky. Have I experienced the happily ever after moment? Yes. Did it last? No.

Probably why many fanfiction authors write ShizNat growing apart in their future (obviously, for the purple of hooking up with another Mai-Series character like I dunno... and ).

Regardless of how you see ShizNat, it's quite clear that Natsuki is always at a peaceful state of mind around Shizuru and considers her a true friend. Recovering from the Carnival arc made them stronger in my opinion, it's an experience that will keep them closer than ever.

MissSoccerNinja wrote:I honestly couldn't see me allowing myself to get into a situation like Shizuru's (especially with something physical. I'd never touch anybody (in any way! Whether it be hand-holding, kissing, anything) who I don't know would certainly be 100% ok with it). But if I were to be in Shizuru's situation, I don't think I'd have the guts to ask for forgiveness. I'd tell Natsuki that I was really sorry, and that what I did was unforgivable, and then I'd leave, fully expecting and accepting the fact that Natsuki would hate me forever. I would never be able to forgive myself, because performing an action like that (violating somebody) would completely go against my nature, and therefore be a conscious decision of mine, my own fault. I could never do that. Even if I loved somebody. (Possibly, especially if I loved somebody.) MidnightPersona said that the heart can override the mind, and I agree with that, in many cases, but for me, my mind almost always wins when it comes to passionate, heart vs. mind decisions.
The case is the opposite though when it comes to id/impulsiveness vs. ego and superego/rationality, though. I can be pretty stupid/impulsive sometimes... XP When it comes to people's feelings though, my brain usually kicks in and takes over, so I can best avoid hurting other people's feelings.

Sometimes the hardest thing in the world for anyone is forgiveness. We all have egos that get the better of us, causing further damage. Therefore, the "what have I done" thoughts begin to haunt you for an eternity. Shizuru would of been completely destroyed if Natsuki chose to not forgive her after they were revived. I'm aware some of you would of liked that...I wouldn't. Natsuki showed that she was very mature, strong and caring to forgive the actions by Shizuru all for the sake of friendship and love (however you see it as).

Good points! This is just me, but I wouldn't want to read a fanfic where Shiznat grow apart. I see them as a great match (perfect match?) for each other, and it would make me sad to think about them growing apart. I don't deny that that can happen, I just choose not to read or think about it. ;P As for them seriously being with anybody else (not just in jokes), it's the same. I see Shiznat as the best couple, (unrivaled by any other pair! ). They make sense to me. =]

Luu, I sincerely hope you find your Shiznat happy ending someday! *gives you a cookie, because cookies are awesome* =]

True! I forgot to put in my last post, that if I were in (what I interpret to be) Natsuki's position (being touched without my consent, but not raped), I would be a little weirded out at first, like Natsuki was, but if I loved the girl, I would most likely ask "Why did you do it?" and try to understand what happened. I would want to forgive her, and find a way to make sense of what happened and move past it. True love is too precious to throw away without irrefutable reason.

If I were raped (like many believe Natsuki's situation to be)... I'm really not sure what I'd do... If it was by a girl I loved (the people I like are usually gentle and considerate), I would seriously re-evaluate their character. I can't see any reason to completely forgive the person (what, in real life, could possibly make sense of/excuse rape? In my opinion, nothing). I wouldn't forgive them. Rape is unforgivable.

she-ga-roo wrote:

not brining up teh courage to help someone if i think they where raped or something? if that really was the reason, then yukino is really low... even if i actually didn't have anything against her, but this question just happened to dig it's way into my brain, why she didn't do anything if she had observed the scene.

This situation, like many discussed on MM, might come down to interpretation. (This is totally and only a hypothesis, but) Two questions we (everybody who chooses to respond to or consider the the question) might have to ask ourseves, before we answer are: 1) What do I think happened on that night with Shiznat? 2)What kind of a person am I? Are there any characters I relate to, in this given situation? and 3) How do my answers to 1 and 2 affect my view on Yukino, Shizuru and Natsuki's situations?

For question 1 for me, I choose to believe that Shizuru didn't rape Natsuki. I choose to believe that either Shizuru didn't do anything except lay beside her (and steal that kiss Harukino saw), or Shizuru at most tentatively touched Natsuki a little. (Which I see as still bad, but not rape.)

For quesiton 2, I don't have much self-esteem, so I tend to minimize the value of my problems ("Eh, I'm alive, so I really have nothing to complain about. I just have to suck it up and move on.") For the second part of question 2, I relate to Natsuki Kuga.
Another point is that the type of person I like (romantically or otherwise) are people I feel safe with (meaning that they are usually gentle, and considerate of my feelings). This would translate to me interpreting Shizuru as a gentle and considerate person.

For question 3, I interpret that Natsuki would be a little weirded out by the situation (being touched but not raped), but it wouldn't tear her apart emotionally/psychologically like rape would. This could be a reason why Yukino may have not have taken action to stop Shizuru.

If I were in Yukino's situation, would I have taken action? I'd like to say yes. I'm not condoning Yukino's choice, simply trying to understand it.

Sorry if I've talked in circles... I'll let somebody else contribute some input...

@MissSoccerNinja:
okay, these are good points...
i dodn't think, that shizuru raped natsuki or did something like that. i think maybe it was on her mind first to steal maybe a kiss here... a touch tehre from sleeping natsuki, but the moment she actually lay beside her she got doubts that she just would betraying the person she said she loved above all. so yeah, i think it ended up that shizuru just lay beside her and maybe not the whole night. to be so close to the one you love and yet so far away can't be easy that i don't think that shizuru could stand it all night.

True! I forgot to put in my last post, that if I were in (what I interpret to be) Natsuki's position (being touched without my consent, but not raped), I would be a little weirded out at first, like Natsuki was, but if I loved the girl, I would most likely ask "Why did you do it?" and try to understand what happened. I would want to forgive her, and find a way to make sense of what happened and move past it. True love is too precious to throw away without irrefutable reason.

If I were raped (like many believe Natsuki's situation to be)... I'm really not sure what I'd do... If it was by a girl I loved (the people I like are usually gentle and considerate), I would seriously re-evaluate their character. I can't see any reason to completely forgive the person (what, in real life, could possibly make sense of/excuse rape? In my opinion, nothing). I wouldn't forgive them. Rape is unforgivable.

That's a smart move on your part, Ninja. What you've heard out of Yukino doesn't hold any truth until the "sinner" herself, tells you why she did it. Up until the supposed "rape", you (as Natsuki) and Shizuru have been nothing but close as friends. You think to yourself "there must be a reason for Shizuru's actions. Being a HiME, locked in this Carnival, being emotionally unstable, it could cause anyone to act blindly. Even the best of us are only human, you know. We can fix any problem in our crazy mixed up world, there are plenty of tools. However, we are only human. Meaning some of us don't want to pick up these tools scattered about. We're either too scared or too angry to even reach down. Natsuki Kuga fixed her relationship with Shizuru, because she has strength of heart and understood the situation.

No. There is no excuse for intentional rape. Normally rapists don't cry for their actions and when they do, it's the "I'm in trouble" waterworks.



^ Pretend the "Kannin na" moment never existed, and Shizuru's "I'm deeply sorry" tears will hold more credibility. But that's just me.

she-ga-roo wrote:@MissSoccerNinja:
okay, these are good points...
i dodn't think, that shizuru raped natsuki or did something like that. i think maybe it was on her mind first to steal maybe a kiss here... a touch tehre from sleeping natsuki, but the moment she actually lay beside her she got doubts that she just would betraying the person she said she loved above all. so yeah, i think it ended up that shizuru just lay beside her and maybe not the whole night. to be so close to the one you love and yet so far away can't be easy that i don't think that shizuru could stand it all night.

Very good point. =] Yes, this is exactly why I can both empathize with/try to understand Shizuru's actions, as well as realize that it's probably very unrealistic for me to assume that absolutely nothing happened.

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:
That's a smart move on your part, Ninja. What you've heard out of Yukino doesn't hold any truth until the "sinner" herself, tells you why she did it. Up until the supposed "rape", you (as Natsuki) and Shizuru have been nothing but close as friends. You think to yourself "there must be a reason for Shizuru's actions. Being a HiME, locked in this Carnival, being emotionally unstable, it could cause anyone to act blindly. Even the best of us are only human, you know. We can fix any problem in our crazy mixed up world, there are plenty of tools. However, we are only human. Meaning some of us don't want to pick up these tools scattered about. We're either too scared or too angry to even reach down. Natsuki Kuga fixed her relationship with Shizuru, because she has strength of heart and understood the situation.

No. There is no excuse for intentional rape. Normally rapists don't cry for their actions and when they do, it's the "I'm in trouble" waterworks.



^ Pretend the "Kannin na" moment never existed, and Shizuru's "I'm deeply sorry" tears will hold more credibility. But that's just me.

Very good points! This is true, what Shizuru says is the most important, and even more importantly with a person like Shizuru (who is very good at concealing her emotions, whether they be love or guilt or pain) is what she does (Such as in the scene of the picture above).

It's sort of funny how Shizuru is good at concealing her emotions and not good at controlling her emotions when they go haywire. Harm to Natsuki is the essential method of making her snap to the point of no return. o_o

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:It's sort of funny how Shizuru is good at concealing her emotions and not good at controlling her emotions when they go haywire. Harm to Natsuki is the essential method of making her snap to the point of no return. o_o

This is true!
I can't say I understand this point (from a purely analytical point of view), because I empathize with/relate to it. :scratch:
This is a completely random spin on the concept, but: Possibly, the reason why she has so much self-control normally, is because she knows that beyond a certain point, she has very little to none (Sort of, protecting others from herself?)... Does this make any sense? Can anybody else relate to that?
Then again, the Carnival was an extraordinary experience, so matters like the end of the world, and influence of the Hime star might need to be taken into account. Could the star (plus the situation) be powerful enough to obliterate a person's (normally strong) self-control?

It's quite possible actually, though blaming the star can only be theorized mind you. XD Some believe all it did was push Shizuru's inner most desires to the extreme. She was going to kill District One and anyone in her path anyway, just more discreetly. ^_~

The world could be at stake and all Shizuru cares about is the well being of her Natsuki, so if she was protecting herself from others, she wasn't doing a good job in the Carnival arc. XD Haruka and Yukino's involvement only made things worse. @_@ If Natsuki wasn't there, all bets would of been off.

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:It's quite possible actually, though blaming the star can only be theorized mind you. XD Some believe all it did was push Shizuru's inner most desires to the extreme. She was going to kill District One and anyone in her path anyway, just more discreetly. ^_~

The world could be at stake and all Shizuru cares about is the well being of her Natsuki, so if she was protecting herself from others, she wasn't doing a good job in the Carnival arc. XD Haruka and Yukino's involvement only made things worse. @_@ If Natsuki wasn't there, all bets would of been off.

I agree with the concept of Shizuru taking care of (probably not killing, but definitely getting her message across to) District 1 discretely. XD

I think that it's often difficult to protect others from yourself. It takes a lot of effort to keep your feelings locked inside. Shizuru did a good job of hiding her feelings from Natsuki before the Carnival (their interactions (while Natsuki was conscious) were purely formal and friendly (on Shizuru's part, at least. Natsuki was fairly distant). The task is really quite taxing.

I think the Carnival arc was where Shizuru stopped protecting others from herself (only focusing on protecting Natsuki from others). Thinking about it though, what would the rest of us do if the person we loved was being threatened, not only by people, but by fate itself? There'd likely be a sense of loss of control, which can be frightening. This fear might lead to overprotection of a person's loved one, which we saw in Shizuru. ('You're a threat to Natsuki, so I'm going to make sure you can never hurt her...I can't stop fate, but I can stop you.')

MissSoccerNinja wrote:I think the Carnival arc was where Shizuru stopped protecting others from herself (only focusing on protecting Natsuki from others). Thinking about it though, what would the rest of us do if the person we loved was being threatened, not only by people, but by fate itself? There'd likely be a sense of loss of control, which can be frightening. This fear might lead to overprotection of a person's loved one, which we saw in Shizuru. ('You're a threat to Natsuki, so I'm going to make sure you can never hurt her...I can't stop fate, but I can stop you.')

Oh trust me, I've been there before. If there's any slight chance that you will lose the person you love, nothing else matters in this world. Nothing matters to the point where you will protect him or her by any means necessary. Which is why, even after reading so many new opinions since the creation of my ShizNat website, no one can real justify that her actions were wrong. She was only doing what was required of the person she was, nothing can change how you reaction or feel. Could it of been done differently without the bloodshed? I wish, but then we wouldn't have such a history making epic throughout the second half of this beloved series now, would we? :3