Shizuru: Villain or Victim of the Carnival?
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ookamidesu
Valkyria Lightning
depression76
Luu Sky Sapphire
SpiralDasher
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Shizuru: Villain or Victim of the Carnival?
Shizuru: Villain or Victim of the Carnival?
by SpiralDasher Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:03 am
Note how I didn’t say the “Mai Hime anime” but the Carnival specifically.
Wait! Before you vote!
Before you choose “victim,” try to step back from your favorite character/pairing views and let’s examine Shizuru’s actions a bit. After you read, you’re free to challenge or disagree with my views; I’d like to see your thoughts. (I already posted this in the Mai-Universe forum, but I thought I'd put it here too.)
In my mind, Shizuru is one of the villains of the Mai Hime anime. Why? Because the pain she felt was either self-inflicted, or she inflicted pain upon others- I can’t really think of an instance that the Carnival directly put her in pain. (Pain as in emotional or physical, interchangeably.) Sure, Nagi and Reito/Obsidian Lord took advantage of her lapse in sanity, but they didn’t directly cause it.
Shizuru’s whole character up to when she saves Natsuki from Nao was protecting Natsuki from the shadows: okay, nothing much to say about that. Shizuru saves Natsuki from Nao: still stable-minded.
Haruka and Yukino come in and Haruka tells Shizuru that homosexuality is wrong and that she’s not doing her work as the Kaichou, thus letting everyone down: Shizuru took up the position of Kaichou to help Natsuki get information she needed, Natsuki found out what she needed to and so Shizuru no longer feels like she needs the position. She still looks and acts calm and even tells Yukino off for doing something similar.
This next part is where the pain of her character comes in:
Natsuki figures out that Shizuru is a lesbian and is in love with her. (I don’t think Natsuki’s against homosexuality more than she was against (afraid of? surprised of?) Shizuru being in love with her.) Shizuru fears Natsuki’s rejection and when she is rejected (harshly, I’ll admit), Shizuru is both shocked and in pain. This isn’t the Carnival’s fault.
Shizuru probably then blames Haruka and Yukino for Natsuki figuring out and tries to hide her emotions behind her “mask.” Her mind churns and she’s tries to figure out a way to possibly get back on Natsuki’s good side (poorly worded, I know)- what better way to do that then to get rid of everything in Natsuki’s way?
She gets rid of Diana, labeling Yukino and her Child as a threat to Natsuki (who cannot summon Duran, so Shizuru “will fight for Natsuki.”) She slips further, thinking that she’ll get rid of everything that’s painful to Natsuki (maybe trying to win her over?) and goes off to get rid of the First District members.
Obsidian Lord tells Nagi to tell Shizuru who her targets are. Again: the Carnival is just manipulating the feelings Shizuru brought unto herself. (Personally, I think Shizuru’s overreacting...) So she gets rid of First District, then goes after Nao after Nao kidnaps Natsuki. She almost kills Nao, but Natsuki steps in; Shizuru sees that Natsuki has her Child back- what could she possibly do now to help Natsuki and keep Natsuki from hating her?
When she can’t think of anything, she plans on keeping Natsuki with her by force, even going so far as to fight her (you can’t tell me getting constricted by a force strong enough to break a thick iron bell wouldn’t hurt). Again, this is all Shizuru and not the Carnival. Natsuki kisses her and she’s shocked, "feeling complete," before they both disappear.
They come back and Shizuru finally feels the weight of killing people and attacking both the Childs and attempting to harm both Nao and Natsuki physically, attacking Nao with the intent of killing her twice.
Now she gets to live the rest of her life with those thoughts, will probably hide even further behind that “mask,” and will probably have PTSD. (I reject that stupid “Kannin na~” ending. -_- Just... no.) (There needs to be a fic that goes through all the Hime and show how they're psychologically scarred after the Carnival...)
Those are my feelings of why she was a one of the Carnival's villains and not a direct victim. Not that I don’t sympathize for her, it’s a very sad role to play in this story and I cried the first time Shiznat died in each other’s arms, but I’m just pointing out that Shizuru brought it all on herself and took it out on others; a victim of her own torturing thoughts and actions, but not directly of the Carnival. I voted villain.
(Shizuru’s not the only Hime villain of the story- no, there are plenty of them. I could make a list them?)
Wait! Before you vote!
Before you choose “victim,” try to step back from your favorite character/pairing views and let’s examine Shizuru’s actions a bit. After you read, you’re free to challenge or disagree with my views; I’d like to see your thoughts. (I already posted this in the Mai-Universe forum, but I thought I'd put it here too.)
In my mind, Shizuru is one of the villains of the Mai Hime anime. Why? Because the pain she felt was either self-inflicted, or she inflicted pain upon others- I can’t really think of an instance that the Carnival directly put her in pain. (Pain as in emotional or physical, interchangeably.) Sure, Nagi and Reito/Obsidian Lord took advantage of her lapse in sanity, but they didn’t directly cause it.
Shizuru’s whole character up to when she saves Natsuki from Nao was protecting Natsuki from the shadows: okay, nothing much to say about that. Shizuru saves Natsuki from Nao: still stable-minded.
Haruka and Yukino come in and Haruka tells Shizuru that homosexuality is wrong and that she’s not doing her work as the Kaichou, thus letting everyone down: Shizuru took up the position of Kaichou to help Natsuki get information she needed, Natsuki found out what she needed to and so Shizuru no longer feels like she needs the position. She still looks and acts calm and even tells Yukino off for doing something similar.
This next part is where the pain of her character comes in:
Natsuki figures out that Shizuru is a lesbian and is in love with her. (I don’t think Natsuki’s against homosexuality more than she was against (afraid of? surprised of?) Shizuru being in love with her.) Shizuru fears Natsuki’s rejection and when she is rejected (harshly, I’ll admit), Shizuru is both shocked and in pain. This isn’t the Carnival’s fault.
Shizuru probably then blames Haruka and Yukino for Natsuki figuring out and tries to hide her emotions behind her “mask.” Her mind churns and she’s tries to figure out a way to possibly get back on Natsuki’s good side (poorly worded, I know)- what better way to do that then to get rid of everything in Natsuki’s way?
She gets rid of Diana, labeling Yukino and her Child as a threat to Natsuki (who cannot summon Duran, so Shizuru “will fight for Natsuki.”) She slips further, thinking that she’ll get rid of everything that’s painful to Natsuki (maybe trying to win her over?) and goes off to get rid of the First District members.
Obsidian Lord tells Nagi to tell Shizuru who her targets are. Again: the Carnival is just manipulating the feelings Shizuru brought unto herself. (Personally, I think Shizuru’s overreacting...) So she gets rid of First District, then goes after Nao after Nao kidnaps Natsuki. She almost kills Nao, but Natsuki steps in; Shizuru sees that Natsuki has her Child back- what could she possibly do now to help Natsuki and keep Natsuki from hating her?
When she can’t think of anything, she plans on keeping Natsuki with her by force, even going so far as to fight her (you can’t tell me getting constricted by a force strong enough to break a thick iron bell wouldn’t hurt). Again, this is all Shizuru and not the Carnival. Natsuki kisses her and she’s shocked, "feeling complete," before they both disappear.
They come back and Shizuru finally feels the weight of killing people and attacking both the Childs and attempting to harm both Nao and Natsuki physically, attacking Nao with the intent of killing her twice.
Now she gets to live the rest of her life with those thoughts, will probably hide even further behind that “mask,” and will probably have PTSD. (I reject that stupid “Kannin na~” ending. -_- Just... no.) (There needs to be a fic that goes through all the Hime and show how they're psychologically scarred after the Carnival...)
Those are my feelings of why she was a one of the Carnival's villains and not a direct victim. Not that I don’t sympathize for her, it’s a very sad role to play in this story and I cried the first time Shiznat died in each other’s arms, but I’m just pointing out that Shizuru brought it all on herself and took it out on others; a victim of her own torturing thoughts and actions, but not directly of the Carnival. I voted villain.
(Shizuru’s not the only Hime villain of the story- no, there are plenty of them. I could make a list them?)
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Re: Shizuru: Villain or Victim of the Carnival?
by Luu Sky Sapphire Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:04 am
Hoo boy, I have a lot to say about this when I return from my trip. I am not choosing victim this time as I'd like to exploit Shizuru's villain aspects very deeply. It's refreshing to see things from a different perspective, it's healthy for me and this fandom. ^_^ Looking forward to other opinions, I'll be back soon enough.
By the way Dash (off-topic ahoy), I would love to read your thoughts on Nao Yuuki in a new thread. If I remember correctly, you really dislike her. Correct me if I'm wrong of course. XD
By the way Dash (off-topic ahoy), I would love to read your thoughts on Nao Yuuki in a new thread. If I remember correctly, you really dislike her. Correct me if I'm wrong of course. XD
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Re: Shizuru: Villain or Victim of the Carnival?
by SpiralDasher Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:55 am
I look forward to your thoughts and everyone else's. =) Time to address the pink elephant, as they say. =PLuu Sky Sapphire wrote:Hoo boy, I have a lot to say about this when I return from my trip. I am not choosing victim this time as I'd like to exploit Shizuru's villain aspects very deeply. It's refreshing to see things from a different perspective, it's healthy for me and this fandom. ^_^ Looking forward to other opinions, I'll be back soon enough.
No, you got it right. However, if I do post a thread about Nao Yuuki, it would turn into a rant board and I don't think anyone here wants a rant board- especially with all the Nao-lovers on this forum. =/Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:By the way Dash (off-topic ahoy), I would love to read your thoughts on Nao Yuuki in a new thread. If I remember correctly, you really dislike her. Correct me if I'm wrong of course. XD
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Re: Shizuru: Villain or Victim of the Carnival?
by depression76 Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:25 pm
SpiralDasher wrote:No, you got it right. However, if I do post a thread about Nao Yuuki, it would turn into a rant board and I don't think anyone here wants a rant board- especially with all the Nao-lovers on this forum. =/
Rawr >83 one here.
But don't worry, Dashy, we're quite open minded here. Everyone's entitled of their opinion, and we'd love to hear yours xDD I dun like Yuuki, a bit compared to Zhang, so yea hehe.
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Re: Shizuru: Villain or Victim of the Carnival?
by Valkyria Lightning Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:54 pm
SpiralDasher wrote:No, you got it right. However, if I do post a thread about Nao Yuuki, it would turn into a rant board and I don't think anyone here wants a rant board- especially with all the Nao-lovers on this forum. =/
well... I like Nao, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't be interested into the other fraction's opinion! Put it up :) I would like to read it ^^
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Re: Shizuru: Villain or Victim of the Carnival?
by ookamidesu Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:30 pm
Let's bring this onto the topic in question. Is Shizuru a villain or a victim?
Shizuru played the role of a villain while she was being victim. Simply put, she was both.
You said, and I shall quote:
You hit it spot on with why she was a villain. But this is also the reason why she was a victim. Pain.
The red star that only the HiME can see actually causes emotional instability in the HiMEs, but this only shows when a HiME experiences pain.
Notice, Mai was willing to kill Mikoto because she was in pain that Takumi died.
Shiho's HiME side only came out in times when she was in pain, and even then, only in her subconscious. But this subconscious knows only to destroy, nothing else. (Actually, I'm not even sure if I should be including Shiho's case, because that in itself is a topic of debate). Nao went berserk when she felt all the HiMEs were against her.
Shizuru was already in too deep to come back from her insanity at that point. It also doesn't help that she didn't have someone to bring her back. At the very least, Mai had Natsuki... and Nao had Natsuki. But Shizuru? She was rejected by Natsuki... until Natsuki saved her too in the end. Lol. Wow, Natsuki is like the HiME savior. XD
In any case, I hope I made sense. My brain died some hours ago. >.>;
Shizuru played the role of a villain while she was being victim. Simply put, she was both.
You said, and I shall quote:
Dashy wrote:In my mind, Shizuru is one of the villains of the Mai Hime anime. Why? Because the pain she felt was either self-inflicted, or she inflicted pain upon others- I can’t really think of an instance that the Carnival directly put her in pain. (Pain as in emotional or physical, interchangeably.)
You hit it spot on with why she was a villain. But this is also the reason why she was a victim. Pain.
The red star that only the HiME can see actually causes emotional instability in the HiMEs, but this only shows when a HiME experiences pain.
Notice, Mai was willing to kill Mikoto because she was in pain that Takumi died.
Shiho's HiME side only came out in times when she was in pain, and even then, only in her subconscious. But this subconscious knows only to destroy, nothing else. (Actually, I'm not even sure if I should be including Shiho's case, because that in itself is a topic of debate). Nao went berserk when she felt all the HiMEs were against her.
Shizuru was already in too deep to come back from her insanity at that point. It also doesn't help that she didn't have someone to bring her back. At the very least, Mai had Natsuki... and Nao had Natsuki. But Shizuru? She was rejected by Natsuki... until Natsuki saved her too in the end. Lol. Wow, Natsuki is like the HiME savior. XD
In any case, I hope I made sense. My brain died some hours ago. >.>;
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Re: Shizuru: Villain or Victim of the Carnival?
by frzn Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:46 am
I voted victim of the Carnival because it made her do things I'm convinced she wouldn't have normally done.
Huh? o_O Shizuru is absent for not more than a day to come to help a loved one and already she is letting everyone down? I'd say that the school can do without her for some time. (Hadn't most of the students left the school anyway? Can't remember.) Shizuru left because of an emergency, and that is when your team members usually take over and fill in for you. But instead of doing so, Yukino and Haruka spent their time seeking her out, neglecting their duties for questionable motives.
SpiralDasher wrote:Haruka and Yukino come in and Haruka tells Shizuru that homosexuality is wrong and that she’s not doing her work as the Kaichou, thus letting everyone down: Shizuru took up the position of Kaichou to help Natsuki get information she needed, Natsuki found out what she needed to and so Shizuru no longer feels like she needs the position. She still looks and acts calm and even tells Yukino off for doing something similar.
Huh? o_O Shizuru is absent for not more than a day to come to help a loved one and already she is letting everyone down? I'd say that the school can do without her for some time. (Hadn't most of the students left the school anyway? Can't remember.) Shizuru left because of an emergency, and that is when your team members usually take over and fill in for you. But instead of doing so, Yukino and Haruka spent their time seeking her out, neglecting their duties for questionable motives.
Yukino and Haruka came to threaten them, no? And what about that time at the beach, when Diana was about to attack Mikoto? Diana was probably not as harmless/useless as she seemed, and with a Hime who lost her powers as target...? The winner takes all in the Carnival.She gets rid of Diana, labeling Yukino and her Child as a threat to Natsuki (who cannot summon Duran, so Shizuru “will fight for Natsuki.”)
Well, Natsuki was after the First District, but wasn't the First District also after Natsuki and all Hime? Wasn't the First District responsible for all the Carnivals? As long as it exists, the Carnival will repeat forever and ever.So she gets rid of First District,
As you said: she goes after Nao after Nao kidnaps Natsuki.then goes after Nao after Nao kidnaps Natsuki.
Natsuki is the one who started the showdown, and you can't tell me that those bullets wouldn't hurt. And don't forget that if Shizuru lost, Natsuki would die, so she can't lose. Who knows, maybe she had the same plan as Natsuki: going down together. Because however you turn it, in a fight between the two, they would both die.When she can’t think of anything, she plans on keeping Natsuki with her by force, even going so far as to fight her (you can’t tell me getting constricted by a force strong enough to break a thick iron bell wouldn’t hurt).
Last edited by frzn on Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:49 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : more typos)
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Re: Shizuru: Villain or Victim of the Carnival?
by MissSoccerNinja Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:41 am
Like ookamidesu, I also think that Shizuru was both a villian and a victim. I think that Shizuru was a villian on a plot-device level (somebody had to defeat Yukino, Nao, First District, and Natsuki. It would take a very strong hime to do that. Shizuru was a very strong hime), and she was a victim on a personality/character level.
I agree with the points that ookamidesu and frzn made. I especially like how ookamidesu explained how the hime star causes emotional instability in the hime, and that Shizuru wasn't the only hime who acted irrationally/insanely/villanously.
I also agree with the point frzn made about Natsuki initiating the fight between her and Shizuru. Natsuki came into the room clearly wanting to fight. There's no doubt about that. (The fact that she trashed the room with her motorcycle, her body language, her tone, the words she used ("I can't allow you to do that...")... The moment Natsuki entered the room on her Ducati, everybody knew that sh** was going to go down. ;P
SpiralDasher: I in no way think that Shizuru "brought her feelings onto herself." I very strongly disagree with that point of your argument. You can't help it when you fall in love with somebody. (To make it worse, it must really suck to fall in love with somebody as dense and emotionally-distant/impaired as Natsuki...Believe me, I (am also dense and emotionally distant/impaired and I) put my girlfriend through hell sometimes...it's a miracle she's still sane...) And when you do care very deeply about somebody, it really, really hurts when you're rejected. (I don't know if this has happened to anybody who reads this, but even without knowing you (anybody that reads this), I can safely be almost certain that most people wouldn't think that he/she "brought the pain onto his/herself.")
In addition, the "overreacting" in destroying District 1 can be attributed to the emotional instability caused/made worse by the Carnival/Hime Star.
Thirdly, it never says that Shizuru only became Student Council President to allow Natsuki to use the computer. Personally, I don't think that somebody as smart as Shizuru would waste so much time and effort on something like that (other methods, that are significantly less time-comsuming than student council, can be used to obtain information).
Finally, I think that life is too dark to watch tv shows with unhappy endings. I think: "Why would I waste my time walking through darkness carrying an unlit candle?" I consider lit candles (happy endings) to be much better, and more helpful in getting through the darkness (life). That's why I'm ok with the ending in which everybody is happy, and nobody has PTSD. (Also, it never explicitly says that Shizuru killed anybody. I choose not to think about it.) I realize that not everybody agrees with that mentality, but that's how I like to see things. Just wanted to add a different perspective. It's a tv show: It's what you personally make of it, and you can choose how you view it. =]
I agree with the points that ookamidesu and frzn made. I especially like how ookamidesu explained how the hime star causes emotional instability in the hime, and that Shizuru wasn't the only hime who acted irrationally/insanely/villanously.
I also agree with the point frzn made about Natsuki initiating the fight between her and Shizuru. Natsuki came into the room clearly wanting to fight. There's no doubt about that. (The fact that she trashed the room with her motorcycle, her body language, her tone, the words she used ("I can't allow you to do that...")... The moment Natsuki entered the room on her Ducati, everybody knew that sh** was going to go down. ;P
SpiralDasher: I in no way think that Shizuru "brought her feelings onto herself." I very strongly disagree with that point of your argument. You can't help it when you fall in love with somebody. (To make it worse, it must really suck to fall in love with somebody as dense and emotionally-distant/impaired as Natsuki...Believe me, I (am also dense and emotionally distant/impaired and I) put my girlfriend through hell sometimes...it's a miracle she's still sane...) And when you do care very deeply about somebody, it really, really hurts when you're rejected. (I don't know if this has happened to anybody who reads this, but even without knowing you (anybody that reads this), I can safely be almost certain that most people wouldn't think that he/she "brought the pain onto his/herself.")
In addition, the "overreacting" in destroying District 1 can be attributed to the emotional instability caused/made worse by the Carnival/Hime Star.
Thirdly, it never says that Shizuru only became Student Council President to allow Natsuki to use the computer. Personally, I don't think that somebody as smart as Shizuru would waste so much time and effort on something like that (other methods, that are significantly less time-comsuming than student council, can be used to obtain information).
Finally, I think that life is too dark to watch tv shows with unhappy endings. I think: "Why would I waste my time walking through darkness carrying an unlit candle?" I consider lit candles (happy endings) to be much better, and more helpful in getting through the darkness (life). That's why I'm ok with the ending in which everybody is happy, and nobody has PTSD. (Also, it never explicitly says that Shizuru killed anybody. I choose not to think about it.) I realize that not everybody agrees with that mentality, but that's how I like to see things. Just wanted to add a different perspective. It's a tv show: It's what you personally make of it, and you can choose how you view it. =]
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Re: Shizuru: Villain or Victim of the Carnival?
by she-ga-roo Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:29 pm
i don't think that shizuru is a villian...
beeing a villian means for me, that you actually plan out your steps, like nagi or the obsidian lord. but i think shizuru just acts to the situations which happed and didn't plan things out.
nao kidnaps natsuki, so shizuru reacted and went after nao.
haruka insulted natsuki, so she reacted, took the blame on herself and started to fight diana.
natsuki lost her child and was aftaid of shizuru, so she reacted and went after the first district.
a villian has a plan, shizuru had not. she never planed anything of that. just said from the start, that she wants to protect natsuki. but i think you hardly can call that a thought out plan... this just came out of an emotion.
i think she's what ookamidesu said: you can say she was both.
but she was more a victim of all that what happened. just the results of that, what she caused by her actions could bring her the title villian, cause she really killed peolple (not 'only' as a result by killing the childs of other himes) and did great damage during her actions.
beeing a villian means for me, that you actually plan out your steps, like nagi or the obsidian lord. but i think shizuru just acts to the situations which happed and didn't plan things out.
nao kidnaps natsuki, so shizuru reacted and went after nao.
haruka insulted natsuki, so she reacted, took the blame on herself and started to fight diana.
natsuki lost her child and was aftaid of shizuru, so she reacted and went after the first district.
a villian has a plan, shizuru had not. she never planed anything of that. just said from the start, that she wants to protect natsuki. but i think you hardly can call that a thought out plan... this just came out of an emotion.
i think she's what ookamidesu said: you can say she was both.
but she was more a victim of all that what happened. just the results of that, what she caused by her actions could bring her the title villian, cause she really killed peolple (not 'only' as a result by killing the childs of other himes) and did great damage during her actions.
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Re: Shizuru: Villain or Victim of the Carnival?
by MidnightPersona Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:12 am
Of course, I agree a lot with my girlfriend. Not BECAUSE she's my girlfriend, but she's great at figuring stuff out.
Now, we know I can out-analyze anyone on HaruKino, but on ShizNat... especially Shizuru, I can do as well.
Let's look at her... She's a victim of love. She was manipulated by events out of her control. A self-righteous fellow student and co-worker on the student council (yes, I just called Haruka self-righteous, be shocked later.) and her soon-to-be-once-she-stops-being-retarded-lover catch her in the act of kissing a sleeping Kuga.
Not only that, but you KNOW Shizuru knows that Yukino lead Haruka there, which must make Shizuru PISSED that she was being spied on, then Yukino admits to more voyeurism (yes, I said that to. Be shocked later.) and Shizuru has to deal with Haruka being COMPLETELY OKAY with her partner, Yukino, essentially watching pr0nz of the Kaichou and Kuga while berating Shizuru for her choices in a lover, where Shizuru calls Yukino out on being 'the pot calling the kettle back' and you KNOW Haruka knows what Shizuru means, we KNOW Shizuru knows that the two ARE in love, but Haruka is dense and won't admit it. So of COURSE Shizuru, after Natsuki hears the entire thing, wants to make them suffer. So, as she is getting a sick sense of joy out of destroying what she sees as the CAUSE for her current issue with Natsuki, due to Shizuru prob planned on telling her eventually on her own terms, yeah... but then she notices how much Haruka, in the end, DID accept Yukino. Shizuru was, indeed, shocked by how Haruka died, but as Yukino was so upset that she was, well... mostly dead inside and just... yeah. Shizuru could take no more. Natsuki's reactions, and Shizuru felt betrayed. Why tell her to stop destroying two people who would destroy them? No. Shizuru had to save Natsuki. If she could prove to Natsuki love... maybe she could be happy and be saved.
If she won the festival, no... if her and Natsuki could win... she had to do this. She had to do everything for Natsuki to win... even if it meant sacrificing herself.
Yes, Shizuru could be seen as a villian, but she was trying to give the ultimate sacrifice to Natsuki. She fought Natsuki, but she didn't THINK if Duran was killed, she would die. Someone else, anyone else, but her. But she couldn't let NATSUKI die. So she HAD to keep her Natsuki from killing Kiyohime. So they fought.
After Shizuru destroyed District 1 and Nao. Nao, who was sadly mislead and alone... and District 1 who, honestly, I believe she killed and am rather glad she did. Save plot holes late. (Yes, I am cold like that.)
Some people can call some of that villain, but to me? No. I think that she was more the victim than anything. Her intent was to do anything for Natsuki. She just got mislead into what that everything WAS by Reito and Nagi. Not to mention Nao and Yukino technically brought their fates down on themselves, especially in Shizuru's eyes.
So, yeah.
I can't believe I wrote that. @_@
Now, we know I can out-analyze anyone on HaruKino, but on ShizNat... especially Shizuru, I can do as well.
Let's look at her... She's a victim of love. She was manipulated by events out of her control. A self-righteous fellow student and co-worker on the student council (yes, I just called Haruka self-righteous, be shocked later.) and her soon-to-be-once-she-stops-being-retarded-lover catch her in the act of kissing a sleeping Kuga.
Not only that, but you KNOW Shizuru knows that Yukino lead Haruka there, which must make Shizuru PISSED that she was being spied on, then Yukino admits to more voyeurism (yes, I said that to. Be shocked later.) and Shizuru has to deal with Haruka being COMPLETELY OKAY with her partner, Yukino, essentially watching pr0nz of the Kaichou and Kuga while berating Shizuru for her choices in a lover, where Shizuru calls Yukino out on being 'the pot calling the kettle back' and you KNOW Haruka knows what Shizuru means, we KNOW Shizuru knows that the two ARE in love, but Haruka is dense and won't admit it. So of COURSE Shizuru, after Natsuki hears the entire thing, wants to make them suffer. So, as she is getting a sick sense of joy out of destroying what she sees as the CAUSE for her current issue with Natsuki, due to Shizuru prob planned on telling her eventually on her own terms, yeah... but then she notices how much Haruka, in the end, DID accept Yukino. Shizuru was, indeed, shocked by how Haruka died, but as Yukino was so upset that she was, well... mostly dead inside and just... yeah. Shizuru could take no more. Natsuki's reactions, and Shizuru felt betrayed. Why tell her to stop destroying two people who would destroy them? No. Shizuru had to save Natsuki. If she could prove to Natsuki love... maybe she could be happy and be saved.
If she won the festival, no... if her and Natsuki could win... she had to do this. She had to do everything for Natsuki to win... even if it meant sacrificing herself.
Yes, Shizuru could be seen as a villian, but she was trying to give the ultimate sacrifice to Natsuki. She fought Natsuki, but she didn't THINK if Duran was killed, she would die. Someone else, anyone else, but her. But she couldn't let NATSUKI die. So she HAD to keep her Natsuki from killing Kiyohime. So they fought.
After Shizuru destroyed District 1 and Nao. Nao, who was sadly mislead and alone... and District 1 who, honestly, I believe she killed and am rather glad she did. Save plot holes late. (Yes, I am cold like that.)
Some people can call some of that villain, but to me? No. I think that she was more the victim than anything. Her intent was to do anything for Natsuki. She just got mislead into what that everything WAS by Reito and Nagi. Not to mention Nao and Yukino technically brought their fates down on themselves, especially in Shizuru's eyes.
So, yeah.
I can't believe I wrote that. @_@
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Re: Shizuru: Villain or Victim of the Carnival?
by she-ga-roo Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:00 pm
@ MidnightPersona
this is what i was talking, just much better! thank you!
this is what i was talking, just much better! thank you!
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Re: Shizuru: Villain or Victim of the Carnival?
by MissSoccerNinja Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:19 pm
MidnightPersona wrote:Of course, I agree a lot with my girlfriend. Not BECAUSE she's my girlfriend, but she's great at figuring stuff out.
Now, we know I can out-analyze anyone on HaruKino, but on ShizNat... especially Shizuru, I can do as well.
Let's look at her... She's a victim of love. She was manipulated by events out of her control. A self-righteous fellow student and co-worker on the student council (yes, I just called Haruka self-righteous, be shocked later.) and her soon-to-be-once-she-stops-being-retarded-lover catch her in the act of kissing a sleeping Kuga.
Not only that, but you KNOW Shizuru knows that Yukino lead Haruka there, which must make Shizuru PISSED that she was being spied on, then Yukino admits to more voyeurism (yes, I said that to. Be shocked later.) and Shizuru has to deal with Haruka being COMPLETELY OKAY with her partner, Yukino, essentially watching pr0nz of the Kaichou and Kuga while berating Shizuru for her choices in a lover, where Shizuru calls Yukino out on being 'the pot calling the kettle back' and you KNOW Haruka knows what Shizuru means, we KNOW Shizuru knows that the two ARE in love, but Haruka is dense and won't admit it. So of COURSE Shizuru, after Natsuki hears the entire thing, wants to make them suffer. So, as she is getting a sick sense of joy out of destroying what she sees as the CAUSE for her current issue with Natsuki, due to Shizuru prob planned on telling her eventually on her own terms, yeah... but then she notices how much Haruka, in the end, DID accept Yukino. Shizuru was, indeed, shocked by how Haruka died, but as Yukino was so upset that she was, well... mostly dead inside and just... yeah. Shizuru could take no more. Natsuki's reactions, and Shizuru felt betrayed. Why tell her to stop destroying two people who would destroy them? No. Shizuru had to save Natsuki. If she could prove to Natsuki love... maybe she could be happy and be saved.
If she won the festival, no... if her and Natsuki could win... she had to do this. She had to do everything for Natsuki to win... even if it meant sacrificing herself.
Yes, Shizuru could be seen as a villian, but she was trying to give the ultimate sacrifice to Natsuki. She fought Natsuki, but she didn't THINK if Duran was killed, she would die. Someone else, anyone else, but her. But she couldn't let NATSUKI die. So she HAD to keep her Natsuki from killing Kiyohime. So they fought.
After Shizuru destroyed District 1 and Nao. Nao, who was sadly mislead and alone... and District 1 who, honestly, I believe she killed and am rather glad she did. Save plot holes late. (Yes, I am cold like that.)
Some people can call some of that villain, but to me? No. I think that she was more the victim than anything. Her intent was to do anything for Natsuki. She just got mislead into what that everything WAS by Reito and Nagi. Not to mention Nao and Yukino technically brought their fates down on themselves, especially in Shizuru's eyes.
So, yeah.
I can't believe I wrote that. @_@
I agree with the point about Shizuru being a victim of love.
The part about Haruka and Yukino is a new concept to me (the fact that Shizuru had such a deep understanding of Haruka and Yukino's relationship), but although it portrays Shizuru as being more concerned with Yukino and Haruka than I previously thought she was, I can also agree with it. I think that Shizuru could be smart and observant (perceptive) enough to figure that out.
But part of me wonders if this is giving Shizuru superhuman abilities of perception.
I at least think that she knew about Yukino liking Haruka (which seems obvious to me), and the (obvious to everybody that's seen the show) fact that Haruka and Yukino had just outed her (Shizuru) in front of Natsuki.
If I were in Shizuru's situation, I'd be ticked off at Yukino and Haruka. And even more strongly, scared of losing Natsuki. That alone would paralyze my logic, and cause me to start thinking illogically. Combined with the influence of the Hime Star, I think Shizuru would have had to have been superhuman to handle the situation logically/diplomatically (by not attacking Yukino).
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Re: Shizuru: Villain or Victim of the Carnival?
by MidnightPersona Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:34 pm
MissSoccerNinja wrote:I agree with the point about Shizuru being a victim of love.
The part about Haruka and Yukino is a new concept to me (the fact that Shizuru had such a deep understanding of Haruka and Yukino's relationship), but although it portrays Shizuru as being more concerned with Yukino and Haruka than I previously thought she was, I can also agree with it. I think that Shizuru could be smart and observant (perceptive) enough to figure that out.
But part of me wonders if this is giving Shizuru superhuman abilities of perception.
I at least think that she knew about Yukino liking Haruka (which seems obvious to me), and the (obvious to everybody that's seen the show) fact that Haruka and Yukino had just outed her (Shizuru) in front of Natsuki.
If I were in Shizuru's situation, I'd be ticked off at Yukino and Haruka. And even more strongly, scared of losing Natsuki. That alone would paralyze my logic, and cause me to start thinking illogically. Combined with the influence of the Hime Star, I think Shizuru would have had to have been superhuman to handle the situation logically/diplomatically (by not attacking Yukino).
The thing is, I thought about it and established, well, Shizuru spends A HELL OF A LOT of time with them in Student Council. I say she knows FAR more than she ever lets on. I honestly believe she knew almost everything before hand, and after the festival it's my headcanon that she tries to make it up to them by helping them get together.
I mean, you don't spend THAT much time with two people who are SO CLOSE and remiand oblivious to their situation.
That's the thing about Shizuru, Haruka, and Yukino. To understand one of them, you must understand all three. And seeing as I am the Resident HaruKino fanwhore I believe that gives me a deeper understanding of all three, and I can honestly say I believe I can figure Shiz better than most pure Shiz fans who see Haruka as unnecessary.
Once I finish writing my ShizKino it'll all make sense. >:3
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Re: Shizuru: Villain or Victim of the Carnival?
by MissSoccerNinja Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:53 pm
MidnightPersona wrote:
The thing is, I thought about it and established, well, Shizuru spends A HELL OF A LOT of time with them in Student Council. I say she knows FAR more than she ever lets on. I honestly believe she knew almost everything before hand, and after the festival it's my headcanon that she tries to make it up to them by helping them get together.
I mean, you don't spend THAT much time with two people who are SO CLOSE and remiand oblivious to their situation.
That's the thing about Shizuru, Haruka, and Yukino. To understand one of them, you must understand all three. And seeing as I am the Resident HaruKino fanwhore I believe that gives me a deeper understanding of all three, and I can honestly say I believe I can figure Shiz better than most pure Shiz fans who see Haruka as unnecessary.
This is true! I see where you're coming from now. =] I hadn't realized how much a person's friends can affect them. (This can probably be attributed to the fact that I never let anybody in, enough to be my friend).
I've heard it been said that Shizuru "has no real friends." This has always upset me. At one point, I even considered believing this as true. But now I think that people who say that aren't entirely right. Haruka and Yukino could be Shizuru's friends.
(Sorry if my posts don't make much sense. I'm still trying to figure things out.)
Come to think of it, Shizuru really is a complicated character (which has been said before, but I think I've now realized this even more).
MidnightPersona wrote:Once I finish writing my ShizKino it'll all make sense. >:3
:pale: It's scary how good you are at making me (a strict "Shiznat can only be with each other or else the world will end in fire and brimstone" fan) very nervous... XD =]
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Re: Shizuru: Villain or Victim of the Carnival?
by MidnightPersona Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:15 pm
MissSoccerNinja wrote:MidnightPersona wrote:
The thing is, I thought about it and established, well, Shizuru spends A HELL OF A LOT of time with them in Student Council. I say she knows FAR more than she ever lets on. I honestly believe she knew almost everything before hand, and after the festival it's my headcanon that she tries to make it up to them by helping them get together.
I mean, you don't spend THAT much time with two people who are SO CLOSE and remiand oblivious to their situation.
That's the thing about Shizuru, Haruka, and Yukino. To understand one of them, you must understand all three. And seeing as I am the Resident HaruKino fanwhore I believe that gives me a deeper understanding of all three, and I can honestly say I believe I can figure Shiz better than most pure Shiz fans who see Haruka as unnecessary.
This is true! I see where you're coming from now. =] I hadn't realized how much a person's friends can affect them. (This can probably be attributed to the fact that I never let anybody in, enough to be my friend).
I've heard it been said that Shizuru "has no real friends." This has always upset me. At one point, I even considered believing this as true. But now I think that people who say that aren't entirely right. Haruka and Yukino could be Shizuru's friends.
(Sorry if my posts don't make much sense. I'm still trying to figure things out.)
Come to think of it, Shizuru really is a complicated character (which has been said before, but I think I've now realized this even more).
Exactly. :3
MissSoccerNinja wrote:MidnightPersona wrote:Once I finish writing my ShizKino it'll all make sense. >:3
:pale: It's scary how good you are at making me (a strict "Shiznat can only be with each other or else the world will end in fire and brimstone" fan) very nervous... XD =]
I can give you a snip-it of it, if you'd like. >;3 I've only got most of the first page done so far. Honestly? I am the Resident HaruKino Fanwhore. Imagine how hard it is for ME to do this? If I didn't see this entire situation as possible... plus there are MANY ending I can do. But which will happen? O:3
Edit: @ Demon: Want me to split move some of these? We keep getting off track xD
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Re: Shizuru: Villain or Victim of the Carnival?
by SpiralDasher Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:25 am
Ah, if you would please? I feel I might never actually respond to this thread at this rate. ^^; I've bookmarked at least three threads so far because I've just woken up and am too lazy to read through all that.
-looks at the eight people who voted 'Villain'- Please explain? =)
-looks at the eight people who voted 'Villain'- Please explain? =)
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